Well, we've thought about it for a long time and now we are going non-pedigree. What's already registered will remain so, and we have a few more to go, but all our bulls except the one who is about to be sold, are now outside the system, even my little red nucleus herd.
The fees for bulls and overage completely spoil everything for us, and I'm not moaning to the council, it's their decision and I respect that. I think they base their decision for high overage fees because they feel you can tell how good a bull is at a very young age....only trouble is, I can't. I'm not interested in using the same bull for years. That's OK for beef but lacks any interest from a breeding point of view for me.
I have explained before so I won't again, but basically because of a mix of fast-track breeding for particular traits, a relatively short experience span so I want to see what I've got first, I don't want to register bulls until they are "a man", and I also want to use quite a lot of bulls and move them on quickly. But, I have the word "business" running through me like in a stick of rock, and it makes no financial sense for me to register any more. I've worked out that over years it may even cost thousands just to register. So that's that, finito.
If anyone is interested, I have kept a few bulls that are special to me in different ways, but one in particular I would really like to find a good home for. He's a small non-short and he's birth notified, and about 18 months old. Anyone looking for something that should turn out to be exceptionally chunky but small non-chondro please get in touch. He seemed a bit special right from birth and he has a good background. He is registerable. I have his mom, and his dad is PV'd. She is waiting to go to a bull; I was going to put him to her but haven't yet.
Edited By Broomcroft on 1233436331
Going Ex-Pedigree
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Broomcroft
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You have to review your costs all the time and I must admit we considered only registering calves from our best cows. Down here in the West Country where TB is still rife with nothing being done to tackle it, it does make sense to keep a pedigree herd. We had one heifer last year that was supposedly a reactor, that showed no signs after slaughter but we got a letter 3 months later to say that she could have been in the early stages of the disease because they were able to grow something from tissue samples.
My point is, compensation for a 20 month old in calf heifer was £350 but with a pedigree certificate £1600.
The wrong reason I know to keep all the animals registered but did certainly help us make up our mind!
My point is, compensation for a 20 month old in calf heifer was £350 but with a pedigree certificate £1600.
The wrong reason I know to keep all the animals registered but did certainly help us make up our mind!
Helston, Cornwall
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Duncan MacIntyre
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I too am very sad to hear Clive's news. I do hope he will reconsider and think about keeping at least a small portion of his herd registered. The existence of any identifiable breed is dependent on documented pedigrees, and while those who wish to keep unregistered stock are free to do so the identity and integrity of the breed are what allows them to reap the benefits. The improvement of a breed, and the wise regulation of it, also depend on individuals with vision like Clive to drive it forward, so the stopping of his input will be a great loss.
I have long predicted that the shape of the breed as the numbers increase will change and we will see large herds which for the most part are unregistered but maintain a core of registered animals - most other livestock breeds follow this patern and I see no reason to suppose that a larger Dexter breed will be the same.
Duncan
I have long predicted that the shape of the breed as the numbers increase will change and we will see large herds which for the most part are unregistered but maintain a core of registered animals - most other livestock breeds follow this patern and I see no reason to suppose that a larger Dexter breed will be the same.
Duncan
Duncan MacIntyre
Burnside Dexters 00316
Burnside
Ascog
Isle of Bute
Burnside Dexters 00316
Burnside
Ascog
Isle of Bute
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Broomcroft
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According to the latest DEFRA table Tony, the heifer should have been £752 if non-reg and £1303 if pedigree at 20 months and slightly above. Maybe the rates have changed? Yes, if you are hit by TB with a few animals early on then it is better financially in the short term to be reg, but longer term, or if you are not hit by TB to any extent, I feel it isn't. If you register early, don't change bulls very often, then it's different. Most other breeds and most other Dexter societies charge a fraction of the DCS charges. It's not for me.
I'll get back to you Carole hopefully with a pic or two and further details. The one I referred to is black, by a red bull and out of a dun cow. I have another also, bigger but within standard, and at 28n months from a 100% black line and I'll get a photo of that one too. But give me a few days with this snow! Both are birth notified and registerable if that's relevant.
Edited By Broomcroft on 1233522377
I'll get back to you Carole hopefully with a pic or two and further details. The one I referred to is black, by a red bull and out of a dun cow. I have another also, bigger but within standard, and at 28n months from a 100% black line and I'll get a photo of that one too. But give me a few days with this snow! Both are birth notified and registerable if that's relevant.
Edited By Broomcroft on 1233522377
Clive
We also breed pedigree Charolais cattle as well as the Dexters and Longhorns.It costs £25 to register a Charolais calf regardless of its sex(within 27 days of birth,the same as BCMS).However the Charolais society will refund or give a credit note of approx £20 if the animals pedigree is withdrawn before it is 12 months old.A fairly large proportion of charolais will have thier pedigrees withdrawn as they are sold as commercial stores/fattened for beef.
Whilst this creates more paperwork for the breed society(or its computer)they have at least had may £25's in thier bank account for up to a year earning interest,and retain £5 to cover additional officework.By a year old most people know if they want an animal to retain its pedigree status .I don't know if this would be an option for the Dexter Society.This scheme would mean the society are not loosing additional income,and any good quality stock would still be registered.
Whilst this creates more paperwork for the breed society(or its computer)they have at least had may £25's in thier bank account for up to a year earning interest,and retain £5 to cover additional officework.By a year old most people know if they want an animal to retain its pedigree status .I don't know if this would be an option for the Dexter Society.This scheme would mean the society are not loosing additional income,and any good quality stock would still be registered.
Clive
You have obviously made a decision but I would ask you to do one thing, continue to Birth notify for the next few months. When your heifer calves come up for sale or retention in the herd at under a year that may be the time to decide to register or not. The pedigree registered heifer is worth twice as much at least. I know that you are running your own beef scheme but for other people like here in N.Ireland steers which have not been birth notified are not entitled to be called Dexters and enter either of our premium beef marketing schemes.
The Society rules are archaic in some cases and plain wrong in others. There is no logical reason why registration of a Bull should cost one penny more than for a heifer. If we want it parentage proven that is a separate cost. Late registration fees are a nonsense, once it is in the computer system it requires the same buttons to be pressed at one month ,13 months or 23 months why should the cost be different?
I also agree with you about the age at which a final decision should be made for a bull, the Society accepts that that decision cannot be made until the bull is four years old according to the rules for the 'The Bull Scheme'. In my own case for practical reasons the decision must be made in the first season as keeping these little fertile troublemakers away from cows and heifers I find to be impossible.
Let us see if we can modify the cattle rules in the same way as we are doing with the constitution to improve the Society as a whole and make it 'inclusive' not 'exclusive'
You have closer contact than most of us to a member of Council, perhaps you could seek an expert opinion.
As one Treasurer to another I understand that the bulls for DNA testing are furnished to the Society in Euros. That should mean a dramatic increase in costs at the present time which is not reflected in the Society charges.
Ian
You have obviously made a decision but I would ask you to do one thing, continue to Birth notify for the next few months. When your heifer calves come up for sale or retention in the herd at under a year that may be the time to decide to register or not. The pedigree registered heifer is worth twice as much at least. I know that you are running your own beef scheme but for other people like here in N.Ireland steers which have not been birth notified are not entitled to be called Dexters and enter either of our premium beef marketing schemes.
The Society rules are archaic in some cases and plain wrong in others. There is no logical reason why registration of a Bull should cost one penny more than for a heifer. If we want it parentage proven that is a separate cost. Late registration fees are a nonsense, once it is in the computer system it requires the same buttons to be pressed at one month ,13 months or 23 months why should the cost be different?
I also agree with you about the age at which a final decision should be made for a bull, the Society accepts that that decision cannot be made until the bull is four years old according to the rules for the 'The Bull Scheme'. In my own case for practical reasons the decision must be made in the first season as keeping these little fertile troublemakers away from cows and heifers I find to be impossible.
Let us see if we can modify the cattle rules in the same way as we are doing with the constitution to improve the Society as a whole and make it 'inclusive' not 'exclusive'
You have closer contact than most of us to a member of Council, perhaps you could seek an expert opinion.
As one Treasurer to another I understand that the bulls for DNA testing are furnished to the Society in Euros. That should mean a dramatic increase in costs at the present time which is not reflected in the Society charges.
Ian
Joan and Ian Simpson
Pennielea Farm
Glenavy
Co Antrim
Pennielea Farm
Glenavy
Co Antrim
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Broomcroft
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Sorry, I do not want to give the impression that this out of the blue. Nothing could be further from the truth. I spent a LOT of time and effort putting the argument forward against high bull and overage fees for nearly a whole year to the SC. The SC went public on this site saying that they would put the matter forward as "top of the list" when passing matters over to the new council. So, the new council put these fees up even higher!!! I was at the meeting when this was decided and my heart just sank and I must admit in fairness, I just gave up at that very moment.
We have two groups of friends who have Ruby Red Devons, all worth twice as much as a Dexter, like for like. One of them pays registration early at about £20, regardless of sex, and the other likes to wait and see and registers late and pays the overage fees which comes to £40 total (something of that order). That's how it should work. The Australian Dexter Society give you 3 years to register before overage kicks in, and then it's about £40-50 total. That's what I call encouraging good breeding.
PS. I am not the treasurer any more as I resigned at Christmas and my wife is not longer a trustee as she also resigned at much the same time, very out of character as she never gives up on anything.
Edited By Broomcroft on 1233529820
We have two groups of friends who have Ruby Red Devons, all worth twice as much as a Dexter, like for like. One of them pays registration early at about £20, regardless of sex, and the other likes to wait and see and registers late and pays the overage fees which comes to £40 total (something of that order). That's how it should work. The Australian Dexter Society give you 3 years to register before overage kicks in, and then it's about £40-50 total. That's what I call encouraging good breeding.
PS. I am not the treasurer any more as I resigned at Christmas and my wife is not longer a trustee as she also resigned at much the same time, very out of character as she never gives up on anything.
Edited By Broomcroft on 1233529820
Clive
I had not realised that we had lost an elected Council member already. No announcement or reason given from any source. Only when I look at the website and re-read the latest bulletin do I see that we only have 8 council members instead of the 10 we had in October. No explanation published anywhere. I now realise the frustration which you are suffering.
For info Irish Moiled society charge £10 for registration of either bull or heifer. In addition we require parentage proving which is £22 per animal. There are theoretical overage fees but these are only applied if a member has allowed their membership of the Society to lapse.
Ian
For info Irish Moiled society charge £10 for registration of either bull or heifer. In addition we require parentage proving which is £22 per animal. There are theoretical overage fees but these are only applied if a member has allowed their membership of the Society to lapse.
Ian
Joan and Ian Simpson
Pennielea Farm
Glenavy
Co Antrim
Pennielea Farm
Glenavy
Co Antrim
Hi Clive
A year is nothing in the scope of life. Lets put the question on the Agenda for the next AGM and put it forward with our reasons for asking for the change.
One of the reasons which have been used as an excuse is parent verification, however this could easily be dealt with by asking anyone submitting a birth notification for a male animals to submit a hair sample to prove its DNA, this could be filed away and when or if you decide to go for full registration another sample could be submitted and both samples checked at the same time. That way there can be no way that the animal is not the one you birth notified. I think Lisa'a idea is also a good suggestion, so lets have a constructive debate on this subject at the next AGM. Regarding not using bulls until they are full grown, I can see two problems with this. 1 if you do not use a bull until he is 2-3 yrs old by the time the calf is born your bull has devalued anyway as it will be over 48 mths, far better IMHO to use a young bull on a couple of top quality cows and then evaluate the calves, by the time they are 1yr old you should have a good idea if the bull is worth keeping as a bull or of to the beef factory.
(if you think you are to small to make a difference try sleeping with a mosquito)
A year is nothing in the scope of life. Lets put the question on the Agenda for the next AGM and put it forward with our reasons for asking for the change.
One of the reasons which have been used as an excuse is parent verification, however this could easily be dealt with by asking anyone submitting a birth notification for a male animals to submit a hair sample to prove its DNA, this could be filed away and when or if you decide to go for full registration another sample could be submitted and both samples checked at the same time. That way there can be no way that the animal is not the one you birth notified. I think Lisa'a idea is also a good suggestion, so lets have a constructive debate on this subject at the next AGM. Regarding not using bulls until they are full grown, I can see two problems with this. 1 if you do not use a bull until he is 2-3 yrs old by the time the calf is born your bull has devalued anyway as it will be over 48 mths, far better IMHO to use a young bull on a couple of top quality cows and then evaluate the calves, by the time they are 1yr old you should have a good idea if the bull is worth keeping as a bull or of to the beef factory.
(if you think you are to small to make a difference try sleeping with a mosquito)
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Broomcroft
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I had not realised that we had lost an elected Council member already. No announcement or reason given from any source. Only when I look at the website and re-read the latest bulletin do I see that we only have 8 council members instead of the 10 we had in October. No explanation published anywhere. I now realise the frustration which you are suffering.
Ian - Caroline and I resigned because we were sidelined. That also applies to other trustees, not just us; so I would be willing to take bets giving quite good odds that the council will get smaller still. Some people seem to think that when they have a quorum then that's all there is to it; but that is NOT how it works. I don't think trustees are making any attempt to fill the vacancies and I would imagine that they want to keep the numbers down. Perhaps a trustee can put us right on this?
Pedigree may be worth twice as much as non-reg, but twice a small amount isn't very much. The most valuable Dexter comes in a box. Looking at the sale prices at the National Show and Sale in the bulletin, they didn't reach beef prices! The most expensive was some 20% lower than I have supplied just one animal for boxed. Fees need to be generally in line with cattle values.
Ann - You can't make decisions like that at an AGM. Those days are gone. Everyone has the right to a vote by proxy so it all has to be laid out in advance, put on the form showing what you are voting for, and then a vote taken (by post in the main probably). No discussion that changes anything can have any effect at that meeting, in fact, practically speaking, there is almost no point even attending. As far as breeding goes, all I want is to be able to decide how I am going to do it and not be governed by penal fees.
Edited By Broomcroft on 1233582316
Clive
I have always advocated that income can be generated from third parties and not continually hit the membership.
A couple of points - I don't quite understand the necessity to announce to the world you are no longer registering; why not just get on with it.
The second is the cost of £15 (or £12 on line) for registering heifers. I sell surplus steers for £150 at 8/9 months, heifers at the same age £250. Perhaps I am lucky in having bulls that are producing quality stock. If you need to slaughter heifers then assuming a dead-weight of 130 kilos that is only about 12p per kilo additional price to cover registration.
I would love to see the Society offer an amnesty on unregistered stock to get them in the herd book as once in; the chances are their progeny will be registered. Perhaps a six month period with all female registrations at £5. With circa 2,000 females not registered annually it could add up to a few bob.
I believe that the Society should offer new members a voucher (valid for 12 months) for a female registration to cover the initial joining fee.
A couple of points - I don't quite understand the necessity to announce to the world you are no longer registering; why not just get on with it.
The second is the cost of £15 (or £12 on line) for registering heifers. I sell surplus steers for £150 at 8/9 months, heifers at the same age £250. Perhaps I am lucky in having bulls that are producing quality stock. If you need to slaughter heifers then assuming a dead-weight of 130 kilos that is only about 12p per kilo additional price to cover registration.
I would love to see the Society offer an amnesty on unregistered stock to get them in the herd book as once in; the chances are their progeny will be registered. Perhaps a six month period with all female registrations at £5. With circa 2,000 females not registered annually it could add up to a few bob.
I believe that the Society should offer new members a voucher (valid for 12 months) for a female registration to cover the initial joining fee.
If an item is put forward for discussion at the AGM and is worded correctly, I would have assumed maybe incorrectly that all the members would have a vote be it in person or postal, and if enough people feel that the overage fees are a problem then one would assume that because we now have the postal vote we would get a better response from all the members. Personally although I would welcome a more flexible approach to the registration on bulls, if I wish to keep a bull the cost of registering it compared to the cost of AI soon diminishes if you use AI and don't get your cows in calf 1st time.
Sadly a lot of people are taking the route of not registering their cattle due to the low prices they are fetching at some of the sales. However prices are often brought down by people selling animals which should realistically
have gone into their freezers, but thats another story.
Sadly a lot of people are taking the route of not registering their cattle due to the low prices they are fetching at some of the sales. However prices are often brought down by people selling animals which should realistically
have gone into their freezers, but thats another story.