There's also the vexed question of Dexters being judged as a dairy breed rather than a beef animal. This introduces all kinds of complications.
My opinion:
We should move to a point when shorts are not allowed to enter competitions. Perhaps that point might be as much as 10 years away - but if we did this then it would begin to solve this problem.
Now I'll take cover!
When is a Dexter not a Dexter? - That is the question...
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wagra dexters
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Peter, we shouldn't settle for being judged as either dairy or beef.
Even if it is the only breed in the category at any specific show we should insist on dual purpose classes.
If we don't do it now we may eventually lose the cottage cow characteristics in the showring.
Margaret
Even if it is the only breed in the category at any specific show we should insist on dual purpose classes.
If we don't do it now we may eventually lose the cottage cow characteristics in the showring.
Margaret
Graham Beever & Margaret Weir
http://www.wagra-dexter.com.au/
http://www.wagra-dexter.com.au/
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Peter thornton
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Maybe as the dexter is not the only dual purpose breed some shows could maybe be pursaded to include them as such, as the shorthorn and IMHO the welsh blacks could also be classed as dual purpose, I'm sure someone can think of other breeds to add to the list.
looking at the udders of some of the progeny of AI bulls I have had from cows with wonderful udders one does wonder if enough thought has been put into this part of the dexters anatomy as a good udder is important as it has to last the cow many lactations and this problem is masked by some exhibitors showing their cows dry, now I do realise that it is easier to show a cow dry if you are on your own but even if the cows are classes as dual purpose
I still think udders are important for the above reason.
looking at the udders of some of the progeny of AI bulls I have had from cows with wonderful udders one does wonder if enough thought has been put into this part of the dexters anatomy as a good udder is important as it has to last the cow many lactations and this problem is masked by some exhibitors showing their cows dry, now I do realise that it is easier to show a cow dry if you are on your own but even if the cows are classes as dual purpose
I still think udders are important for the above reason.-
wagra dexters
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They are listed in the beef schedules here.
Margaret.
Margaret.
Graham Beever & Margaret Weir
http://www.wagra-dexter.com.au/
http://www.wagra-dexter.com.au/
The Dexter is definitely dual-purpose. The Royal insist on either beef or dairy they will not consider the classification of dual purpose. Since we were not prepared to give up the milk connotation we felt it wiser to adopt the dairy classes. Many milking breeds are reasonable for beef while beef seldom have an excess of milk, in fact they can be sadly lacking.
Beryl (Woodmagic)
Beryl (Woodmagic)
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Broomcroft
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The original question was "When is a Dexter not a Dexter (height-wise) ?". The answer seems to be "It is always a Dexter regardless of height or size as long as both mom and dad were dexters, and also regardless of whether it is registered or unregistered because they will be "registered" with BCMS in any event (in the UK at least)."
I was fully expecting a lot or most people to say that anything over a certain size shouldn't be registered, or something like that.
So, a practical example...I have one BIG shortie, and she is due to calve soon and if she gives birth to a non-chondro calf, it should be a whopper. I'm sure she's got Galloway or something similar in her (not my breeding and she's going to be culled after this next calf). If it's a "nice" bull calf, meaning nice as an animal not a Dexter, then I could register him if I wanted? Shortie or Non-Shortie makes no difference to the genetic size of the beast so whatever this potential big bull produced would be equally as large. I'm not going to register it, it'll be beefed, but I could apparently. It just doesn't seem right. Here I am with a herd where quite a few are challenging the standard, and where I am going to great lengths to get my height down and I'm wondering whether I'm going the right way or not!
To summarise this topic, the Dexter is a breed where the small size is critical but it doesn't matter what size they are!!! Duncan said what a complex breed the Dexter is...how right he is, although maybe confused would be more appropriate :D
I was fully expecting a lot or most people to say that anything over a certain size shouldn't be registered, or something like that.
So, a practical example...I have one BIG shortie, and she is due to calve soon and if she gives birth to a non-chondro calf, it should be a whopper. I'm sure she's got Galloway or something similar in her (not my breeding and she's going to be culled after this next calf). If it's a "nice" bull calf, meaning nice as an animal not a Dexter, then I could register him if I wanted? Shortie or Non-Shortie makes no difference to the genetic size of the beast so whatever this potential big bull produced would be equally as large. I'm not going to register it, it'll be beefed, but I could apparently. It just doesn't seem right. Here I am with a herd where quite a few are challenging the standard, and where I am going to great lengths to get my height down and I'm wondering whether I'm going the right way or not!
To summarise this topic, the Dexter is a breed where the small size is critical but it doesn't matter what size they are!!! Duncan said what a complex breed the Dexter is...how right he is, although maybe confused would be more appropriate :D
Clive
There is enough spread in the Dexter genetics that people can choose animals of whatever height they need, to produce the type of calves they want to breed, which will sell in the market for which they are aimed.
Our Grade 1 - 3 cows produced big enough calves from two of our bulls (1 carrier and the other a non-carrier) to be able to sell the steers at the local salesyards without any problem AND get a good price for them as they grew to around 200kg by 6 months old.
But our Grade 4 and 5 Dexter cows and heifers that were mated to a small non-carrier bull, are producing very much smaller calves (weighing under or around 20kg at birth). The steers of these calves will only be marketable to people wanting to grow meat for their own freezers - therefore private sales only. This includes the non-carrier steer calves. Which are well within the breed standard in height.
I think that each breeder needs to determine what market they are breeding for and select accordingly. There are non-carrier bulls around which fit within the height standard, so if you choose to breed a whole herd that fits within this standard all the time, it is quite possible to do so with non-carrier animals.
Over the last 3 generations, the average height of our heifers has reduced and using the two new bulls that we now have (both non-carriers), which are both within the breed standard, I expect this trend to continue. We have two cows which have tested as carriers of one mutation or the other and are awaiting the results of tests on three heifer calves at the moment. The rest of the female herd are non-carriers - 18 breeding cows and heifers.
If we can acheive the breed standard in height by the time our animals reach Grade 4 (purebred) statis using bulls which are just over, or under the height standard, then I would say that its quite possible for breeders to breed purebred non-carrier Dexters within the breed standard, if they choose to. A number of NZ herds are able to do just that.
I don't see the point in continuing to purposely breed carrier Dexters, with their associated health problems, when its quite possible to breed non-carrier Dexters which fit within the breed standard, but don't have the higher rate of arthritis in their joints and the higher rate of calving problems. I've had to assist more carrier cows to calve than non-carrier cows. They just have less room for the calf to move around in and I've had breech, head bent backwards and feet blocking the exit births to assist with. All of which were to carrier cows. There are far fewer issues with birthing in non-carrier cows.
So for me its a no brainer. I can breed non-carrier cows that keep better health, have a lower rate of calving problems AND stay within the breed height standard. So why would I want to persevere with carrier cows? Especially since it costs me $80 to test any heifer calves for BD1 (if either parent is a carrier) or $120 to test for BD2 (the NZ mutation). So its economically more sensible for me to try to breed a non-carrier herd.
In NZ we have All-Bred judges and a number of the judges put forward by the Dexter Society, breed non-carriers. So there isn't any bias toward carrier Dexters in the ring. The strength of an animal's feet are particularly important in a breeding animal, especially for bulls and show animals are judged accordingly. Most of the winners in NZ Show rings are non-carriers and a few Dexter bulls have beaten beef bulls from other breeds, in the champion classes. Simply on the standard of their bone structure and muscling, as judged by a panel of 3 judges. If an animal is well put together, it doesn't matter what their size is.
Edited By Inger on 1232973261
Our Grade 1 - 3 cows produced big enough calves from two of our bulls (1 carrier and the other a non-carrier) to be able to sell the steers at the local salesyards without any problem AND get a good price for them as they grew to around 200kg by 6 months old.
But our Grade 4 and 5 Dexter cows and heifers that were mated to a small non-carrier bull, are producing very much smaller calves (weighing under or around 20kg at birth). The steers of these calves will only be marketable to people wanting to grow meat for their own freezers - therefore private sales only. This includes the non-carrier steer calves. Which are well within the breed standard in height.
I think that each breeder needs to determine what market they are breeding for and select accordingly. There are non-carrier bulls around which fit within the height standard, so if you choose to breed a whole herd that fits within this standard all the time, it is quite possible to do so with non-carrier animals.
Over the last 3 generations, the average height of our heifers has reduced and using the two new bulls that we now have (both non-carriers), which are both within the breed standard, I expect this trend to continue. We have two cows which have tested as carriers of one mutation or the other and are awaiting the results of tests on three heifer calves at the moment. The rest of the female herd are non-carriers - 18 breeding cows and heifers.
If we can acheive the breed standard in height by the time our animals reach Grade 4 (purebred) statis using bulls which are just over, or under the height standard, then I would say that its quite possible for breeders to breed purebred non-carrier Dexters within the breed standard, if they choose to. A number of NZ herds are able to do just that.
I don't see the point in continuing to purposely breed carrier Dexters, with their associated health problems, when its quite possible to breed non-carrier Dexters which fit within the breed standard, but don't have the higher rate of arthritis in their joints and the higher rate of calving problems. I've had to assist more carrier cows to calve than non-carrier cows. They just have less room for the calf to move around in and I've had breech, head bent backwards and feet blocking the exit births to assist with. All of which were to carrier cows. There are far fewer issues with birthing in non-carrier cows.
So for me its a no brainer. I can breed non-carrier cows that keep better health, have a lower rate of calving problems AND stay within the breed height standard. So why would I want to persevere with carrier cows? Especially since it costs me $80 to test any heifer calves for BD1 (if either parent is a carrier) or $120 to test for BD2 (the NZ mutation). So its economically more sensible for me to try to breed a non-carrier herd.
In NZ we have All-Bred judges and a number of the judges put forward by the Dexter Society, breed non-carriers. So there isn't any bias toward carrier Dexters in the ring. The strength of an animal's feet are particularly important in a breeding animal, especially for bulls and show animals are judged accordingly. Most of the winners in NZ Show rings are non-carriers and a few Dexter bulls have beaten beef bulls from other breeds, in the champion classes. Simply on the standard of their bone structure and muscling, as judged by a panel of 3 judges. If an animal is well put together, it doesn't matter what their size is.
Edited By Inger on 1232973261
Inger
NZ
NZ
I am curious as to why your calf should definetly be a whooper as I have had the smallest and the tallest calves from short legged cows that are on the top size I have also had some which are non short and definetly within the standard. That in MHO is the problem with the fact that the only way to breed shorts is to have to mate them to non shorts if you want to be 100% sure you will get a healthy l calf.
Ref the size issue, I believe our breed is the only one to actually state a size range and until the day dawns when all dexters no longer carry the condro gene I can not see the issue being resolved. I do believe also that nutrition also plays a big part in the size many domestic species including humans end up. Where for instance did you see a wild giant rabbit or a wild sheep gaining the size that many of the commercial ones do in this country. I think if we could visit dexter herds in Africa where all the animals are non short and have to foray for their food we would find that they are probably within the height range. Looking at the nice picture you put on of your little red herd, they are carrying a lot more condition than dexters I have seen that are grazing the type of traditional pasture they would have grazed in Ireland and in many instances also in the U.K. Enjoy your dexters Clive and make your own decissions about where your herd fits with in the standard everyone else seems to.
Ref the size issue, I believe our breed is the only one to actually state a size range and until the day dawns when all dexters no longer carry the condro gene I can not see the issue being resolved. I do believe also that nutrition also plays a big part in the size many domestic species including humans end up. Where for instance did you see a wild giant rabbit or a wild sheep gaining the size that many of the commercial ones do in this country. I think if we could visit dexter herds in Africa where all the animals are non short and have to foray for their food
we would find that they are probably within the height range. Looking at the nice picture you put on of your little red herd, they are carrying a lot more condition than dexters I have seen that are grazing the type of traditional pasture they would have grazed in Ireland and in many instances also in the U.K. Enjoy your dexters Clive and make your own decissions about where your herd fits with in the standard everyone else seems to.