Cattle Size - Breeding Effects

[Louisa Gidney]

Duncan, well said. We should never forget that "improvement", in the C19th sense of a smart looking animal, was regarded by Darwin as a "murderous pestilence" that obliterated the small Dexter type cattle from England. This idea of "improvement" also eradicated the Dexter from Ireland and brought the Dexters left in England to the brink of extinction 40 years ago.
As Broomcroft has noted with his sheep, we need to develop, or quantify, different parameters that are not necessarily based on outward appearance. There are different strains of short leg. Some, like the Vycanny's, remain sound into their late teens. I would be more concerned about improving udder conformation and feet than getting rid of carriers. Having started with non-shorts, as being the way to go, I am actually reverting to a mostly short herd. However my junior bull, though bred from a carrier cow, is not himself a carrier but looks as though he is going to be less tall than either his non short father or paternal grandfather. I'd like the ideal of a small non carrier Dexter too. This is where line breeding and in breeding, as Rutherford has previously observed, help in correlating genotype with phenotype.

[Rutherford]

Louisa is right in emphasising the need to be chary of ‘improvement’ to bring the animal up to the latest fashion in standards. These may well fill commercial requirements, which in a few years time will no longer be desired. While the endeavour to obtain them will have lost some precious quality distinct to the Dexter.
However it would be wrong to say the Dexter nearly reached extinction, for any other reason than the impossibility of breeding without the loss of one in four to the bulldog. The breed at that time was notorious for it. Any vet. would quote what he had learnt from any vets. textbook, the Dexter cited as the classic example of the lethal gene.
What is also certain is that if you require the animal free from the recessive, you can actually breed and select from all heifer calves born. If you aim for the carrier, you have to take potluck about what you get, not only on sex, but also on type, and on average halve your choice. It must be very disappointing, when your best cow insists in giving you calves of the wrong shape.
The early days meant many disheartened newcomers backed out of the breed with the arrival of their first bulldog calf, and although the skilled stock keeper may avoid accidents they still happen
I too, agree with Duncan, dictation is not the answer, but I do believe it would be reasonable and fair, not to put restrictions on entries, but on the judges.
Beryl (Rutherford)

[Peter thornton]

That's exactly the point!
If short legged Dexters were simply a different type of Dexters then there wouldn't be a problem. Variety is a good thing in any breed, within the breed parameters. However any animal that produces different types of calves on a random basis (but statistically 50%) is not a realistic proposition for many people.

[wagra]

Avoiding conformational and genetic faults by judicious breeding can hardly be confused with 'improvement', if by that word it is meant that a single selection parameter is used to change the dual-purposeness of the original Dexter, in either direction.
Hopefully, there should come a time when the societies across the globe close the herd book to carrier registration.
Adequate warning of several years would need to be given.
Margaret.

[Martin]

We have to remember that 'improvement' is good (as the word implies). It is the mistakes made whilst improving that are wrong. There is a need to improve feet, udder, suceptability to arthritis, getting rid of the lethal gene and predictability of type without losing the breeds main atributes. The issues are, who will do the improving and how, the cost and the time.

[Saffy]

Whenever the the achondroplasia gene is mentioned ( I hope I spelt that right) I have noticed that breeding it out becomes the conclusion for most people on the board here. - Followed by - but it would take years, a bit of a discussion and then it dwindles.

So just out of the sake of interest how long do the people reading this think it should/would take for us all to breed out, cut out short legged stock from our herds. If we all wanted to/agreed to do it.

Less than 5 years?

5 years?

10 years

15 years?

20years?

Anyone comment.

Stephanie



Edited By Saffy on 1213172447

[Louisa Gidney]

Saffy, personal opinion is that it could be done in 20 years IF the majority of breeders had this as a primary aim. However, having hired out bulls for 19 years now, I'm well aware that the majority of Dexter owners wait until their cow comes bulling, then phone round to see who has a bull available. In other words, they are not actually interested in what they are breeding, merely in getting their cow in calf. Such Dexter owners will simply go down the unregistered stock route if DCS tries to enforce a breeding programme on them.
The Woodmagic herd has shown it can be done but other herds need this as a long term goal, to increase the availability of bloodlines of traditional Dexter size but non carrier animals.
A problem is that many people keep Dexters as a retirement hobby so only have a herd for a relatively short time and do not have the opportunity to formulate a long term breeding strategy.
DCS could help expedite matters by increasing the availability of suitable bulls on AI.

[Martin]

It could be done if there where enough breeders willing and able to get stuck in and lead the way.
As far as the DCS forcing a breeding policy on such a diverse membership will be near on impossible, who would try to implement such a policy? Council for sure won't want to be seen to be responsible for what could end up with a second society formed for carrier animals.

[marcus]

I would rather use a good conformation short-legged bull on my non-shorts than a poor non-short. There are not enough good non-short bulls about, and until such time as there are we cannot afford to lose the shorts,otherwise you will end up with a small black holstein lookalike.

[Rutherford]

I agree entirely with both Louisa and Martin, we badly need more sizeable herds breeding for a small non-carrier. Even if they shortcut it by starting off with a Woodmagic, and then breed away simply retaining the size. It is essential to get more bloodlines involved. We should not risk division of the breed. I do know one who hires out a lot of bulls locally, at present about 14, and she has virtually no requests for a short.
Many novices find A.I. difficult, and since one has no control over timing, it can be hit and miss. Add the problems of catering, if you are away all day at work. It is also quite expensive to put a bull on A.I. I do think some of the hire fees I have heard of are quite outrageous. Since my herd is IBR free I cannot help. I couldn’t take him back once he had been out, or I would be willing to help.
Beryl (Woodmagic)

[wagra]

Stehanie, it used to be called achondroplasia, but a few years ago it was decided by those who know about such things that chondrodysplasia is the more correct term for the condition.
Margaret.

[Mark Bowles]

You canc ount me in for a second society for carrier animals.

[Peter thornton]

There are two aspects to "improvement".

One is the elimination of faults and the other is the development of the breed and the tightening of breed standards. It seems to me that the second of these should be the subject of debate and could lead to harmful results whilst the first cannot really be argued with.

As to who will do this? We all will. What some of us lack (especially me) is the knowledge to look at 2 heifers and choose the one with the better udder and feet. Last year I had 2 similar looking animals and chose to breed from one and keep the other for slaughter. Naturally I chose the wrong one! Fortunately, being females I can change my mind but education is the answer. Hopefully the DCS will soon be putting the politics behind it and looking at issues such as this. As I've said here before, the oversupply of heifers is a golden opportunity to begin to get rid of some of the faults such as illustrated in the thread on breeding bulls.

But, as has been said by several people, we don't want a situation where every Dexter looks identical and we lose the diversity that makes it such a super breed.

[Sylvia]

I think it is achondroplasia which causes the short legs/almost normal length body in some African dwarf goats. It certainly doesn't have the fatal effects that the bulldog gene does in Dexters. It is these and the 'normal' pituitary dwarfs which have been bred to produce the distinctive Pygmy goat well known in Britain and USA.

As for the question of how long should be allowed to rid Dexters of their problem gene, if the DCS was really serious about it no carrier should be able to be registered from a date in the near future. Owners should be re-educated to send all their carrier Dexters for beef and keep the non-carriers for breeding. It would also be necessary to re-educate the general public most of whom can probably recognise a carrier Dexter, few a non-carrier. In about 15 - 20 years all the carriers would have died out. Sorted. And better hope that carriers do not have some other, as yet undiscovered, gene which governs something which is as highly prized as the bulldog gene is feared.

It is amazing how clear-sighted it is possible to be when it no longer applies me.

[marion]

I'm not sure which way things are going in England, but in North America a number of breeders are aiming for a small, dual-purpose Dexter that is not a chondro carrier. Discussion on various chat boards has some breeders insisting that elimination of the chondro gene would get rid of more than the bone deformity. They insist that carriers have qualities that non-carriers do not have - in particular a sweet temperament. I am one of those breeding small non-carriers. My smallest cow is 39 inches, deep bodied. Her bull calf is a very solid guy and she has plenty of milk and a wonderful temperament. Can't see that anything Dexter is missing, except the defective bone of a carrier.