Bull Registrations (UK) - ....falling through the floor

Broomcroft · Post by **Broomcroft** » Tue Jun 03, 2008 1:01 pm

Hi

Bull registrations seem to be falling through the floor. They have gone down dramatically over the past few years and the latest figures (for 2007) show a further decline. Down to approx 60 new bulls, almost 1/3rd of what it was a few years ago and a constant downwards slope. Surely it can't go any lower?

Are people using hire bulls more, or AI, or are people going non-pedigree? Any thoughts anyone?

Edited By Broomcroft on 1212494480

Saffy · Post by **Saffy** » Tue Jun 03, 2008 2:26 pm

Maybe parent verification seems a bit scary and complicated to some people so they just don't bother? Especially if they have been registering their stock for years without.

Stephanie

Louisa Gidney · Post by **Louisa Gidney** » Tue Jun 03, 2008 3:59 pm

The cost is a big disincentive to registration, as Broomcroft's recent post on overage registration demonstrated. I nearly gave up on registering my young bull last year with the cost and hassle of DNA sample collection with the dam away on summer keep and the sire now in another herd in Scotland. The Dexter office didn't seem to appreciate that I wanted to pay for the registration & DNA samples separately and sequentially because I didn't have the money to pay for it in one lump sum. There didn't seem to be a simple, clear cut, bog standard, rather than elite, registration process ie send in birth notification chit with cheque.
As for non pedigree, increasingly the people who hire my bulls aren't bothered about the yellow birth cards to notify bull calves anyway and more aren't notifying or registering heifers either. Some are going for beef, others are increasing the unregistered breeding herd.
I sympathise as I'm finding with my sheep that the Combined Flock Book may yet be the straw that breaks the camel's back and I may not either notify or register a lot of lambs this year. Next stop possiibly the Dexters.

Rutherford · Post by **Rutherford** » Tue Jun 03, 2008 4:27 pm

Louis is right, a little while ago it cost £30 to register a bull, and today unless the parents are already verified it is at least three times that or more. I know of several breeders who are hesitating, many who hire out bulls find that today the owners of the cows often aren’t interested in registration, so there is little incentive. Folks are cutting down on expense when money is tight. The Society is sadly losing out forever. I have said time and again, I think DNA should be reserved for the animal that is sold, hired out, or put on A.I. Otherwise, for use within the owner’s herd it should be left as voluntary, I believe genetically it would advantage the breed, not harm it. The only ones to lose out would be the genetics firm; D.C.S. would surely gain.
Beryl (Woodmagic)

moomin · Post by **moomin** » Tue Jun 03, 2008 5:14 pm

I completely agree with Beryl. PV should be voluntary - said this for years. Madness making PV compulsory in our breed. A lot of people are not registering, my feedback from semen sales confirms this. I sell a lot of semen to people who are dropping membership because of costs. Need to do something about it quickly. Am however in favour of DNA profiling as explained in previous message on board.
Di

Broomcroft · Post by **Broomcroft** » Tue Jun 03, 2008 7:50 pm

Right, I'm really going to show myself up here. What's the difference between Parent Verification and DNA Profiling?

Rutherford · Post by **Rutherford** » Tue Jun 03, 2008 8:23 pm

Parent Verification means doing a DNA profile on both the bull’s parents, in order to confirm the breeding when they are matched to the bull' own DNA. What Di is suggesting is simply doing it solely on the bull himself. I would settle for that, although I still feel the cost may deter some breeders.
Beryl (Woodmagic)

moomin · Post by **moomin** » Tue Jun 03, 2008 9:49 pm

We were just doing profiling on bulls and the cost I think was £30.00. About £20.00 for profile testing and £10.00 for registration. The testing in Holland may have gone up because of exchange rates at the moment but I bet the society could charge £40.00 and cover all costs including profiling. £40.00 is not unreasonable for a bull but £90.00 is!
In a few years time all bulls would be profiled and we would be well on our way to PV. I negotiated special rates with Van Haeringen and I think it was 20euros a sample at that time. There is no VAT on the testing in Holland. Have a look at it Clive and see if we are still paying 20. I enquired in UK recently and was quoted £90.00 each sample so we are really getting a good deal from Holland.
Am closing down now 'till Sunday-going to South of England Show for a holiday!
Di

Sylvia · Post by **Sylvia** » Tue Jun 03, 2008 10:59 pm

Registering a bull calf is costing me £90 (£30 x 3) for sire (already bulldog tested), dam and calf plus when those results come back another £50 for registering him so £140 to register one bull calf, so how many of you are registering all your bull calves so that you can choose the most desirable at a later date?

Peter thornton · Post by **Peter thornton** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 12:29 am

I've just had a look back at some old posts and it was in September 2005 that a few of us were predicting just this outcome of the absurbly complicated and expensive procedures to register a bull.

I remember that one prominent member of the DCS used to buy young bulls at about 9 months old and breed from then the following year. He would then look carefully at the bull and its calf before deciding whether to keep it or slaughter it just before 30 months. It seemed like a comonsense approach but nowadays that would be just too expensive.

I hope the steering committee are looking at this issue and that they can inject some much needed realism into the amount of hoops that the average Dexter keeper is prepared to jump through.

Like Louisa, we have looked at the issue with sheep and we have gone half bred non pedigree. It's so much easier!

I'd rather keep the Dexters as pedigree, but there are limits as to how far I'm prepared to drive to find a (registered) bull.

Broomcroft · Post by **Broomcroft** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 7:46 am

Being treasurer at the moment and watching what is probably a society that is financially speaking on a plateau, and I would add, just about to start a decline, I do think that both the cost and the timing of bull registrations may be the cause. It certainly is with me. It should be acted upon and quickly.

On timing, I would add that the overage fee is also a disaster. It doesn't even bring any money in because no-one pays it. It doesn;t cost any more to do a bull later either. It's just a penalty. We should encourage late decision on whether to keep a bull or not, rather than force people to make a decision when it is not time, and then eat the thing when if turns out wrong later like I have heard so many people say, including me (Mind you he was tasty :;): ). Other societies do this.

The DCS must do all the right things for its cattle but it must also be financially viable to be able to do it, so it is worth noting that because the number of bulls each year is so low, it doesn't make any material difference to the society whether they charge a lot or little.

So, next question....what would you suggest DCS does?

Edited By Broomcroft on 1212562293

Martin · Post by **Martin** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 8:44 am

In answer to Peters question, yes the Steering Committee has discussed the matter of bull registration and fees. We do agree that solutions need to be found for the present problems but do not feel that we have the mandate to change things. We believe that a new council after the AGM should have this on the top of their agenda. Clive is doing some valuable research into costings etc. that can be passed to the new council in October. I would think that this topic was started to enable members to add their thoughts and reasoning to enable Clive to get a better picture for a report to Council.
My own thoughts on the subject are that because of 'mistakes' in the past there is a culture of mistrust within the Society and some believe that parent verification is the only way to prove that the bull is by who it is claimed.
If it is decided to go down the DNA profiling route, eventually all bulls will have a profile and all youngstock would at least be able to be checked if the sire is correct. It may take a few years to achieve but will be a far better solution than the one we have now.

Rutherford · Post by **Rutherford** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 9:54 am

If, as Di suggests, we could make a charge of £40 and cover costs, including DNA., I think it worth following. As has been pointed out, this would enable the gradual building up of the data- base.
I would also put in a plea for later registration without penalty. The presence of passport regulations are a reasonable safety guard, the past problems mentioned were identified through them.
I suggest up to three years, and notification allowed up to point of registration of offspring that should also be extended, providing endorsement of mating was provided. This would bring in extra registrations without in any way reducing standards.
If we are losing some members, it would enable the newcomer to register stock that had defaulted. What matters is that the stock should be eligible, not the timing of registration. The more pedigree Dexters we bring into the fold, the bigger our income.
Beryl (Woodmagic)

LewisMoore · Post by **LewisMoore** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 3:37 pm

I would agree with lowering the cost, as £90 is a lot to rake out. Also if i wanted to show a bull it has to be fully regisered right? Does this mean that i would have to pay the £90 just to register him and include all the Dna tests?

Lewis Moore (aged 16)
Brinkley herd

Rutherford · Post by **Rutherford** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 4:08 pm

Lewis, you not only have to find the £140 for DNA tests and registration fee, you also have to track both the bull’s parents down to take their DNA. As Louisa says, it can be a major undertaking.
Beryl (Woodmagic)