Starting out - Diverse views!!!

[Broomcroft]

Sounds good Duncan. You say if you do it on your own then it won't go anywhere. How do you get others involved and informed?

[Duncan MacIntyre]

I don't think I am actually on my own, there are a number out there breeding smallish nonchondrodysplastic
Dexters, perhaps not so obvious about it. It will take a long time. I do not wish to rush off at a tangent from the DCS either, I feel very strongly that a breed should have one organised and well run Breed Society and it is important not to cause splits etc. So far the DCS manages to function with a broad base of Dexter breeders and that is the way it should be. Likewise I would not wish to see too much strife over polled versus horned issues.

Duncan

[Anna]

I also think Duncan is hitting the truth when he assumes that the original dexter was a small local breed with no chondrodysplasia at all. I can´t imagine that early Irish smallholders, known for living under small and tough circumstance, would stick with a breed delivering dead calves by 25%.

To me what makes a dexter is the small small size and the dual purpose qualities, truly not "the chondrodysplasia effect". I find the disussion in this thread extremely intresting and I am learning alot. At the same time much of this I don´t need to know since Scandinavian dexters are supposed to be free from chondrodysplasia, and we wouldn´t be allowed to bring them here. We simply don´t have the choice between shorts and non-shorts.

The ability to produce top quality of both milk and meat, and for its size a high quantity of these, seems to me the main goal for the dexter breeders. Am I wrong here? Feel free to oppose, I am both a foreigner and a novice..

[Broomcroft]

What about the effect of food quality on size? Could that distort things. Meaning, if you know that they used to be smaller, but maybe they also had poorer grazing, you'd need to make an adjustment for that or put the new stock on poor grazing as well. I know a woman who breeds Angus on SSSI land with poor grazing and she says everything that leaves her farm starts to grow. Protien produces the growth doesn't it? I would imagine old hill grass didn't have a lot so the cattle will be stunted by that maybe?

[Duncan MacIntyre]

What Clive says about feeding and size is true, but not the whole story. By the 1920s or 30s Dexters had been bred in good conditions for many generations, but the breed descriptions say a bull in working conditions was 900lb, and that held for many years. I think much of the increase we se with 2007 versus 1927 is due to selection for size, be it totally intentional or not.

Most breeds have increased in size during my lifetime, eg Angus, Ayrshire, Holstein/Friesian, Shorthorn. What their breeders do with their breeds is their business. They would never have looked on small size a major attribute of their breed. But the size has always been a major point of the Dexter breed.

Duncan

[redhill]

Well said Duncan ,we could not have put it better ourselves, Bill and Sue and our herd of smallish ,short ,non short,milky,beefy,Dexters with horns on.

[Woodmagic]

I have enjoyed this discussion and am grateful to Saffy for starting it. The only reason for breeding a bigger Dexter must be the infuriating regulations that make a small animal so expensive to slaughter. However, the size is the one quality that above all others cannot be offered by any other breed, we sacrifice it at our peril. It is likely to prove very difficult to regain it once lost.
Over the years, my main aim has been to breed as close to the original that came out of Ireland as possible. An animal that for centuries had thrived without man’s intervention on very poor quality grazing can do still better when given some support. I think there is little doubt that the bulldog calf is the result of comparatively recent mistaken endeavours to increase the beefing qualities, probably in the 18th century. The Dexter’s self sufficiency and small size has made it the ideal for the novice smallholder, and that is a trend we should exploit.
When they were imported, the difficulty of distinguishing the difference between the original true breeder and the medium dwarf meant a complete confusion in the breeding, but the ‘beefier’ dwarf had the advantage and was selected for, breeders were completely oblivious that they were breeding for a lethal recessive. In the 50’s I can vouch for the fact there were quite a lot of small true breeders about. If you look at early photographs it is possible to spot some of them. The large animal will be carrying genes from the bigger breed, which gave the bulldog gene, and by breeding smaller you will retain more of the original Dexter. Genes which have been bred out of the modern breeds in favour of more ‘commercial attributes’

[Saffy]

More advice please.

I have noticed quite a few udder problems in the herds I have seen, including one older cow feeding her calf from just one quarter.

Is the dexter particularly prone to udder problems, or is it as I suspect that they produce a huge amount of milk and should perhaps be milked out daily during their first flush of milk and /or don't dry off properly due to being milky?

When I aquire my dexters, which I hope now will be soon - watch this space! I intend to buy a few items to help me care for them as efficiently as possible and am thinking of adding portable milking machine to the list.

Do other breeders milk them to avoid udder problems? Also none of the breeders I spoke to use any kind of "dry cow tube" does anybody use them on dexters? Do I need to? Are there any other tried and tested ways to avoid mastitus in the dry cow? Is summer mastitus a problem in dexters? Does anybody use fly tags or spray?

I was told by one lady to give my cows a particular lick all year round that contains magnesium. I don't like the idea unless I absolutely must, partly because it sounds like an unnecessary expense, partly because I don't hold with giving any medication blindly and partly because I believe magnesium deficiency should only be a problem during the heaviest milking period of a lactation. Do I need it?

We did give all our animals vitamin B12, for selenium deficiency I think, is that right? So I assume I should dose with that, will that be best as an injection or a feed supplement? I seem to remember having used both.

Also most of the people I talked to seem to have the "foot man" every year, do dexter feet grow very fast, will I be more likely to have that problem as my grass is particularly good, (former dairy herd grass)? I have to ration my horses.

What wormer do I use?
What if anything should I vaccinate against?
Are dexters "prone" to any disease or other problem?

Stephanie - Starting to get excited about getting dexters

:D

[Sylvia]

Hello Stephanie, in 7 years we have had no udder problems (and I have my fingers crossed as it is a very dangerous thing to state nothing has gone wrong about anything, I now expect the sky to fall in). We have never milked any cows, have let cows dry off if they lost a calf or suckled them with a replacement. Spot On could be used to ward off summer mastitis but we don't usually use it. Magnesium licks are only provided when cows first go out on lush grass. We do not find minerals necessary year round. Selenium deficiency is probably an individual farm problem (Duncan will almost certainly advise about this). We use a pour-on wormer (Noromectin) but only if it is necessary. Best to get dung samples tested to see what worms are present and in what quantity. We do not vaccinate for anything. We have had the foot man twice in 7 years and he has only done a smallish percentage of the herd. Some feet grow quicker, some hardly ever need touching, this could I think be an inherited thing. These are answers based on our own experience doubtless others will suggest other things, hope it helps.

[Woodmagic]

Theoretically I would say it is good advice to use dry cow therapy on all cows when they are dried off. In practice I use it on my house cow only. Since I usually dry most of my cows off together, it would be quite job to tackle the lot. I only remember one case of summer mastitis, and that was a week or so after she calved. The best cure for mastitis is a calf suckling, and I would say a suckler herd is much less prone to mastitis than a dairy herd. I do wean my calves by gradually cutting them down to once daily, well before finally cutting out the milk, and giving them about a fortnight on every other day, but I believe I am unusual in this. I refrain from chemical treatments, and only use them where I think they are essential, I try to work with and imitate nature. I haven’t used a spray on this farm in the last 40 years. I was converted by Rachel Carson’s ‘Silent Spring’.
Having said that, I do inject my calves with selenium at birth having been advised to do so, by my vet. when a calf went down with a deficiency I also feed my cows a high magnesium suckler cow roll since I lost a cow. I have also lost calves with magnesium deficiency, so they are encouraged to eat the rolls, and if they are not eating enough by the time they are eight weeks, I dose them with magnesium bullets. My vet tells me that it is the calf that is being done particularly well with milk that is most susceptible. They need to consume enough dry feed containing the magnesium after eight weeks, when they can no longer draw on the skeleton. These precautions only need to be undertaken, if you are locally magnesium deficient, which apparently most soils now are. This deficiency certainly seems to be much more of a problem throughout the year than it used to be, and not only in Dexter herds.
I don’t use wormers, relying on pasture management, but the present weather is making me desperate, I can’t use half my fields.
It is mainly short leg Dexters that require so much foot trimming; the gene often affects their feet.

[Martin]

Hi Stephanie, I have one cow (the boss) who is 14 years old and for the last three years has suffered from mastitus as she produces far more milk than her calf (when very young) can cope with. Milking her out twice a day would probably help but in my situation rather impractial, I give her some long acting antibiotic and an inflamitory jab and she is then fine for the rest of the year.
I did consider culling her because of this but as she always produces the best calf in the herd I decided that I could afford the £25 extra a year spent on her and she will stay in the herd until she cannot produce a calf a year. Weaning is done at 8-9 months and I havn't had any problems then as that is normally when I house for winter and their rations change to all hay.
I have one cow that tends to grow a lot of hoof but not a problem.
I use Noramectin as a wormer and use it when I turn out to a new pasture once a year and usually again at housing.
Spot on is used to help with flies, although so far this year no treatment has been neccessary.
Magnesium licks are used in spring only and in winter I tend to use a feed block that has a certain amount of minerals, If your land is deficient in a particular mineral then you may have to suppliment.
I have not vacinated against any disease as a few blood samples sent for test earlier this year showed that no nasties where found and as the cow that donated the sample is the mother/grandmother of 3 of the other animals in the herd I would conclude that we are nastie free.
Remember they are just smaller cows than you are used to and good stockmanship with larger animals is just as relevant in Dexters. I doubt very much that you will have any specific problems Stephanie, just the usual daily drama's you expect when keeping stock.
I look forward to your posts when you get your animals, and wish you luck.
Martin. Medway Valley Dexters.

[Rob R]

I was told by one lady to give my cows a particular lick all year round that contains magnesium. I don't like the idea unless I absolutely must, partly because it sounds like an unnecessary expense, partly because I don't hold with giving any medication blindly and partly because I believe magnesium deficiency should only be a problem during the heaviest milking period of a lactation. Do I need it?

It really depends on your farm as to wether you need any supplements or not, and a blanket recommendation [for anything] is just wrong. Magnesium, as you know, is only really usually a problem on lush Spring grass in high demand cows. Of course I believe such problems are in your soils, not your cows, but supplements seem to be de rigueur these days.

In nearly 12 years I haven't had a clinical case of metabolic deficiencies (other than the odd hypoglycaemic calf) in my Dexters, yet my Dad is on the same type of land with large dairy & suckler cows that always seem to be having problems with milk fever & staggers, though he does use synthetic fertiliser & we don't.

I also have yet to worm a Dexter or use insecticides or vaccines on them. Occasionally we use natural repellents but on the whole I've found the breed not to be very susceptible to parasites or disease.

[Duncan MacIntyre]

Lots of good advice here already, but I will add my bit.

On the mastitis front, I don't think any suckler cow is particularly liable to suffer, except for Summer Mastitis of which more later. Ordinary clinical mastitis is less likely in a suckled cow, though there is a theoretical risk with Dexters overproducing during the first few weeks of lactation as the calf just cannot take it all. I worried about this when I first started running them as sucklers. having milked one or two for several years. I did get occasional mastitis when hand or machine milking, and usually treated it by injectable antibiotics rather than tubes, especially with one which was always very nervous of any activity out of the usual and keen to use her feet if she felt all was not exactly as usual. When cows calf now I watch and if the udder seems uncomfortably stocked with milk I draw off some by hand as and when it seems needed, but it is not very often. Most of my quieter ones will stand in the field and let me do it, even though they have never been milked as such. I have never seen mastitis in any of them at that stage. We are now told that many apparent new infections with mastitis in dairy cows have actually penetrated the udder during the dry period and lain dormant for weeks or months.

Summer Mastitis is a more specific infection occuring in dry cows and heifers, with a dreadful purulent infection which rapidly destroys the secretory tissue in any infected quarter. If you have been dairying you will probably be too aware of this. It is often a local problem, even only in certain fields in a farm due to habitat for flies. Strangely we have seen much less of it in Bute recently despite lots of flies about. I think the flies are of a different species, they follow the cows indoors at milking and bite during milking causing a lot of unrest, even bite the dairymen. Some complain of the flies getting into the house and biting humans at night. I hope to get a samle of these to an entomologist this summer for identification. Anyway, back to summer mastitis, August bag, or udder clap depending on where you live and how posh you are. If your farm has suffered from this in past I would think about Dry Cow tubes for cows dry during July, August and September, combined with use of Spoton or similar, and if you can handle them twice or threee times a week put Stockholm tar on the udder. But that is really only necessary in areas where the disease has been an established problem. If you do get a case then spotting it quickly is essential if treatment is going to be successful - much easier to save ;the cow than save the quarter. See your vet for preferred antibiotcs injections, and draw out the quarter as much and as often as possible.

If you are giving your cattle any quantity of concentrate then mineral and trace element deficiencies are not so likely. But if you are aiming at grass fed only I would give them access to a mineral bucket including maginesium in spring and autumn. I would not rush into giving B12(cobalt), copper or selenium(linked to vit E) unless you are sure they need it, either from history of the farm or from blood tests.

Like most of the others I only worm my cattle once a year, usually at housing, with maybe an extra dose if I have young stock in high density during summer. I do them for liver fluke at least twice a year, but only certain parts of the country need that, though the area covered by liver fluke is expanding, so ask your vet.

On the feet front, I have to trim mine a lot less since I stopped milking and feeding a high level of concentrate, but one or two individuals do seem to grow more length of hoof than others. I find Dexter feet much easier to trim than most cattle, the wall seems to grow more without great thickness of sole, and I cut across the toe to make the foot the right length from coronary band to end of toe, then trim off the exta wall along the side of the hoof. Most Dexters can be done in a crush or along side a gate by roping the leg up to working height without an expensive foot trimming crush.

One thing you will find if you have been involved in larger scale farming is that when you only have a very few Dexters, or any other stock in very small numbers, then everything is either very successfull or a total failure. That is nothing you are doing wrong or right for the most part, it is just the fact that one cow out of two going wrong in any way is 50% going wrong, which sounds dreadful. Likewise two heifer calves out of two is 100% heifers, but you really could only get 0, 50 or 100, not so much room for middle ground if you see what I mean.

So get this new herd formed, we are all waiting to cheer you on.

Duncan

[Saffy]

Thanks to everyone who has replied to my many questions and put my mind at rest.

I will post again when I get my cow/s and crow about how wonderful they are. I will probably have more questions as well!!! :D

Stephanie

[Woodmagic]

I suspect many of the supplements urged on the cow keeper these days are the result of modern commercial expectations for performance in the dairy cow. I do suggest though that enquiries are made from a reliable source of local need in the case of magnesium in particular.
You may be fortunately placed Rob, but when I was trying to obtain blood samples for the achondrodysplasia investigation I was faced so often with the reply – ‘I no longer have her, she died of magnesium deficiency’ I was horrified at the number of times this happened, and it was all over the country. My own vet believes it to be much more common than years ago.
I sold a much-loved pet to a smallholder locally, and suggested she continued to use the cow rolls I use myself. The second time the supplier didn’t have them to hand, and she was persuaded to purchase another cake, a week later she lost the cow with magnesium deficiency. A breeder a few miles from here lost a cow two years running, and talking to a neighbouring big beef producer heard he had lost three in that year. It is a difficult one to deal with, because if a cow is affected, it is a race against time to get a vet to treat it before it is dead.
I had an argument with a young vet when I called him in to a young calf in an advanced case, because he didn’t believe calves could go down with it, having gained his experience in dairying country.
Supplementation can take various forms, I prefer to use a suckler cow roll designed to provide the maximum in the minimum of cake, since it is difficult to be sure all 40 odd animals actually use a lick. I don’t like bullets because they can regurgitate them, and I have heard cases where the owner forgets to supplement them before their time ran out.
As far as selenium is concerned, our government is seriously considering putting it into our bread, because it is recognised there is a national shortage, if we are short I think it is likely our calves with their tremendous energy may be. I was fortunate that my vet had studied the subject and written a paper on it, when I had my case, and we found on blood testing that they were all short.