Calve size - size of new born bull calves

water_lily_uk · Post by **water_lily_uk** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 5:19 pm

Hello people, I am new to this sight and have a
problem I really need help with.
Me and my parents got a dexter short leg heifer
and after taking advice but her across a long leg
using AI. Unfortunatly she had to have a C section
and are vet as are Dexter is his first he is unable
to advice us on if he calf was to big or she was to
small. Can anyone help on what size a Bull calve
should be. This will make a difference to if we try again
Rachel

Duncan MacIntyre · Post by **Duncan MacIntyre** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 11:43 pm

If you are members of the Dexter Cattle Society you should contact your nearest field adviser. They will be able to advise on suitable matings and may make a visit to help. If you are not yet members you should think about joining, it is a very good way to make contact with others in your area who keep Dexters. You will find a link to Dexter Cattle Society on the main page of this site.

Duncan UK

water_lily_uk · Post by **water_lily_uk** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 11:53 pm

We are members but there are no
field advicers near us as we are in
south wales.
The calf was 26kilos and it was 22inches to the shoulder.
We managed to get it suckling the following day (had special milk prior)
after we managed to teach it to Kneel.

Duncan MacIntyre · Post by **Duncan MacIntyre** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 12:25 am

Try contacting Mick Oliphant, the Field Adviser Co-ordinator, there may be someone nearer than you think you could help - I think it would be good in this case to have someone with an experienced eye look at the heifer and hopefully put your mind at rest for future matings.

Duncan

Inger · Post by **Inger** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 9:32 am

I've weighed all our calves this year and 25-26 kgs was around average for them (depending on the sire of the calves). Did the vet say if the heifer was physically normal? If she is normal in her make-up, you need to find a bull that throws smaller than average Dexter calves.

Also, was she over-fed during the later months of pregnancy? Your Field Adviser can help with that as well.

water_lily_uk · Post by **water_lily_uk** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 11:07 am

We had goon to great effort with the vet to make sure she would have
little food in late pregnancy to reduce the chance of a problem.
The bull was Red berry prince .
Do any off you no a Ai bull who
gives smaller calfs. The vet just
said the calfs head was slightly to
big and she might be slightly fat
but very slightly. no other problems.

Inger · Post by **Inger** » Sun Mar 26, 2006 8:03 am

It may have been a bit more of a problem because she was a first calver. Ask the AI companies for birth size statistics on the semen they provide.

Duncan MacIntyre · Post by **Duncan MacIntyre** » Sun Mar 26, 2006 11:57 am

I doubt if AI companies will have much info on Dexter bulls, there is little organised feedback from users in UK. As the owner of a bull put on AI in the early 1990's I doubt if more than two or three people have made any contact after a calving. Perhaps a dozen or so have enquired before using him.

It is not easy to comment without having seen the heifer and the calf, which is why I have been urging you to get someone knowledgeable in the Dexter world to have a look. Holding off feed in heifers to keep the calf small is in my opinion very unlikely to have much effect other than to limit the growth of the heifer - nature makes sure that the foetus has priority, and the growth of the heifer as she matures suffers. This can compound the problem, but I can by no means say that that has been the case with your heifer because I have not seen her. Neither cows nor heifers should be fat at calving, but as I say it is very important for heifers to have adequate feed to allow both the calf and the mother to grow.

Duncan

Nick Robinson · Post by **Nick Robinson** » Sun Mar 26, 2006 12:37 pm

I am the Field Advisor for Monmouthshire. Where in South Wales are you?

Have you contacted the owners of Redberry Prince for any information they hold on the size of the calves he throws?

water_lily_uk · Post by **water_lily_uk** » Sun Mar 26, 2006 2:56 pm

Thanks for the imformation.
I had taken advice from the Bulls owner befor during and recently he got back to me over the C section
he has given a list of possible reasons most were ruled out by the vet. He said a most she was slightly
fat , the calf was presented correctly but the head was to big for
the calf to come out.She was held back on calving as the vet had thought she had been held back prior
to us geting her and also so she could go
to the bull at a time when the food would be down in the last 3 months.
The calf though is healthy and was
born with a full set of teeth the poor mother
The vet wants us to get her pregnant quickly if we are going to
hoping this might reduce calf size.
We sadly live near ammanford which
is 20miles out of swansea a long way
from monmouth.
Rachel

Woodmagic · Post by **Woodmagic** » Sun Mar 26, 2006 3:03 pm

You have run into the problem, which is always a danger with the short leg, particularly the first calving. The heifer is reduced in size, through the effect of the bulldog gene, but if her calf does not inherit the bulldog gene, it will grow to match the true size of the dam, too big for the heifer to calve it easily.
The advice to use a non-short bull is entirely correct, since using a short leg small bull leaves one even more likely to have the same problem, plus the risk of a bulldog calf. Enquire for a small non-short, preferably not more than 44” at five years. It is worth ensuring that it is DNA verified to be free of achondrodysplasia. Unfortunately, today there is a tendency to breed bulls much bigger. Although it is true, the economics of slaughter, tend to favour the bigger beef animal, I feel it is getting away from the Dexter. My calves run between 35lbs. and 40lbs., and female average height to withers at five years 40”, which is where the Dexter was, years ago. Some bulls today are running at 68”-70”at maturity, there is no point in checking on size, until he finishes growing, which can be up to five years.
The A.I. cannot give you much information on ease of calving, in this country, in the case of the Dexter; it is better to go back to the breeder, which I gather you have done, did you enquire as to size of bull?

water_lily_uk · Post by **water_lily_uk** » Sun Mar 26, 2006 3:24 pm

I had enquired about sizes as part of
picking he Bull I had been a little concerned by the bulls size a 44 to rump at 3 years with her being 38 to shoulder at time
but had been reasured the bull would be fine for her and sound by your measurements thats correct.
Both Heifer and Bull have good pedigree maybe it is just Bad luck
thanks
rachel

Inger · Post by **Inger** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 7:07 am

It seems we need to put more effort into gathering statistics on our bulls, to make it easier for breeders to choose a bull appropriate for their cow.

The only calving difficulties we have had is with short-legged cows. I'm really set on weeding them out of our herd now, after having a couple of close calls with bulls that threw calves a little bit larger than average. The long-legged cows coped fine with calves of similar weight, but some of the short-legged cows had strange presentations, where the calf couldn't turn into the correct position for birth. The shape of the head has a very important part to play in easy/difficult calving as well. The worse shape is the broad forehead. That seems to cause the most trouble.

Woodmagic · Post by **Woodmagic** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 8:40 am

My reference to withers height has clouded the issue. For many years, measurements were always taken at the withers, fairly recently this was changed to pin measurement. I still tend to think in ‘old money’, and it makes a big difference. A bull, with a rump measurement of 44”, is likely to be around 48” at the withers, and I would not wish to use a bull of that size, on a short leg heifer. As I said, the heifer herself probably contributed to the size of the calf, but there is no point in compounding it, you should be able to find a bull considerably smaller. I hope you are successful, that the result is a small and charming non-short heifer calf, when your future will be plain sailing.

Ted Neal · Post by **Ted Neal** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 10:29 pm

Hello Rachel
It sounds very much you did all the right things. As Beryl (Woodmagic) said the height of the bull sounded very large and if your heifer was very short, the problems can happen. It is quite difficult in bull selection these days as it is not clear what the AI bulls throw and as fas as I know there is not any data on calving difficulties.
Many years ago I had a heifer that had a c-section. She went on to produce quite a few live calves naturally.
Good luck for the future