Page 1 of 2
Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2005 12:14 am
by Elizabeth
Ok at the risk of boring everyone, I am still on about this height measurement thing ??? Has anyone ever recorded the length of the cannon bone at birth through maturity to see if there was any correlation to the mature height. I don't have any new borns but I did check my 7 mo old heifer, who I am training to lead right now and her cannon was 7.5 inches at 31 inches heaight. Her Dam's at four years is 7.5 inches and 40 inches height....well it got me to wondering. I would be interested to know if this has been done etc. Liz
Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2005 12:49 am
by Duncan MacIntyre
With the best intentions in the world I never seem to get even basic birth weight recorded let alone be methodical enough to do the very regular comparisons which would be needed to be meaningful. Then we would have to take diet and other management factors into account to compare like with like. I also think it is very difficult to actually measure the lenght of cannon bone accurately and consistently. Even height measurements really need a very consistent approach to get comparable results on a scientific basis. If anyone doubts this they should get hold of the Joint Measurement Board regulations for measuring and certifying height in horses.
Duncan,
not really meaning to sound a wet blanket, I have thought about such things and these are my excuses for not doing it!!
Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2005 12:58 am
by Elizabeth
Not a wet blanket certainly Duncan. I was kind of afraid you were going to start in on me about 'the physiology of the cow' :;): Meaning it could never work! I maybe have hope. I mean think of horses...you wouldn't have to be spot on to see if there was a relationship. Even scientists use 'anecdotal' sometimes. Thanks for responding! Liz
Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 6:50 am
by Inger
Why does the height matter so much? Its a Dexter guideline yes and something we can aim for in the 'perfect' cow, but there are many other features that a useful Dexter needs to have, apart from a certain height.
Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 11:07 am
by Duncan MacIntyre
To me height and weight should be the most defining criteria for the adult dexter. As long as we have to encompass both Chondrosyplasia carriers and non carriers we cannot use one or the other of them to define the size of a dexter - it is a combination of them which is important. Many breeders do not realise how large some of their short legged animals are, and when they produce a long legged be it by mating short to long or short to short, a much bigger animal than expected appears simply because it has the length of legs which truly belong with the body. The result of this, combined with the notion that we have to get them a bit bigger to make slaughter charges etc more bearable, is creating a drift to larger and larger dexters. I went into dexters in the first place because they were small and I could contemplate keeping a house cow and followers on a very small steep area. I am not the slightest bit interested in a slightly smaller version of the traditional angus. Lets keep dexters the size they are meant to be. Maybe we should be doing more measuring of individuals as they growl
Duncan
Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 1:46 pm
by Saffy
Oh my God, Duncan!!!
Do Dexters growl often!!!
Only when you touch their calf or step on their foot I imagine. Very scary!!! :D :D :D
Stephanie.......... Ok being a little stupid, its that Christmas feeling!
Duncan, did you find the above strategically placed comma, or did you mean it to go somewhere else?!
???
Punctuation...I think we did it once in 3rd year!!! :D
Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 2:03 pm
by Duncan MacIntyre
Some of mine do!! Maybe only Pontius the bull at the moment, but I have had some growlers in the past!!
Duncan, just wondering if you could punctuate the sentence "Oh my God Duncan!!" - a strategically placed comma could alter the meaning depending on where it was placed.
Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 6:20 pm
by Elizabeth
I guess that the reason that I am so interested in 'height', weight and size in general is that the compact, dual purposeness of the Dexter was what orriginally drew me to the breed as being the perfect 'house' cow for us. The efficiency of feed, manure and milk production of my 40" girl is incredible. It doesn't make me dislike my 46" girl, but it does make sense to me to achieve that ideal efficient little cow for our small farm. Of course there are many other factors involved, temperment, hardyness, robustness etc. that I love about the breed but truly if I had wanted something the size of a Jersey, or small Angus...we would have bought it orriginally. My interest in any early 'markers' about what the mature cow will end up being I guess is a little anal and I am not trying to bore, but with limited space culling is very much a factor and it is also my personality, trying to find out as such about the 'whys'. Cheers, Liz ps Duncan, I think it is very nice that you do want a comma; my vet would prefer it to be left out if we let him, oh but there I go assuming 'where' you would have it placed!!
:D
Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 8:11 pm
by Duncan MacIntyre
I very much agree with what you say, Elizabeth, the problem for me is just getting the detailed measurements done and in a fashion that makes them valid. My entry to the Dexter world was very much to have a home source of milk and as useful a cow as we could have on our small smallholding. Our very first reared her own calf, 7 bought in calves, and provided milk for the house. She was long legged, and some of our local farmers didn't think much of her, until she went away after doing as described above and was sold for 840gns at Stoneleigh. The going rate for a friesian heifer at the time was about £300-£400.
If we want to do meaningful measurements they must be standardised and repeatable, so that anyone doing the same measurements will come up with the same answer. This difficulty combined with having the time and patience to do it are the only barriers in my mind. It is not a silly idea.
Punctuation I leave to you, it was your sentence in the first place. My own God is beyond facetious punctuation!!
Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 6:40 pm
by Kathy Millar
OK, so I want to measure my Dexters. I now know that I measure at the hip (not the withers!). Does anyone have a design for a homemade measuring stick? I have in mind two "sticks" at right angles to each other and the one is marked off in inches/cm. and the other slides up and down. Can't quite figure out how to get the slider attached so it will stay at a 90' angle. And please don't tell me to go down to my feed store and purchase one as we have nothing around here like that, and if it's made for horses it's too expensive! 
Kathy
Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 6:42 pm
by Kathy Millar
OK, so I want to measure my Dexters. I now know that I measure at the hip (not the withers!). Does anyone have a design for a homemade measuring stick? I have in mind two "sticks" at right angles to each other and the one is marked off in inches/cm. and the other slides up and down. Can't quite figure out how to get the slider attached so it will stay at a 90' angle. And please don't tell me to go down to my feed store and purchase one as we have nothing around here like that, and if it's made for horses it's too expensive!
Kathy
Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 3:24 am
by Richard ~
Kathy Millar wrote:OK, so I want to measure my Dexters. I now know that I measure at the hip (not the withers!). Does anyone have a design for a homemade measuring stick? I have in mind two "sticks" at right angles to each other and the one is marked off in inches/cm. and the other slides up and down. Can't quite figure out how to get the slider attached so it will stay at a 90' angle. And please don't tell me to go down to my feed store and purchase one as we have nothing around here like that, and if it's made for horses it's too expensive!
Kathy
I haven't tried this but one idea for a homemade measuring stick that I've seen is to use a pvc T and ream it out so that it slides up and down your main pipe/pole. Glue another pipe/pole to the T that will go out over the hip and mark your measurements on your main pipe.
People will also sometimes use chutes that have measurement markings on them.
Richard ~
Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 11:18 am
by Inger
They only work on level ground when the animal is standing very square. Most of my animals won't cooperate. I still haven't managed to get a measurement of our bull that I'm entirely confident in. He's over the height anyway, so I guess by how much, doesn't really matter.
We've still got a lot of work to do on our herd breeding, so to me, getting the height down to within the correct range, is only one item on a list of 'to-dos' that include getting our heifers' rear ends a better shape and correcting the shape and size of their udders. It's going to take generations and a hard search for some really good bulls to correct the faults. But I'm confident that eventually we'll produce a line of worthwhile heifers. It just takes luck (to get heifer calves) and patience.
Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 12:24 pm
by Sylvia
I had a measuring stick for the Pygmies years ago (supplied by an American friend) which was a folding wooden measure with a piece of similar wood fixed to it at right angles which fitted snuggly but would slide up and down. I think it was simply fitted with 2 blocks just wider than the measure with a piece across the back screwed on. I hope the Dexter world will not follow the Pygmy goat practise of reduction in size to the extent they are heading for. Over 30 years I estimate they have knocked about a third off the size despite a minimum height in the breed standard to discourage just that.
Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 2:56 pm
by Duncan MacIntyre
My concern for height and weight is not to reduce the size of a Dexter but to keep it to what they were until fairly recently. The old breed standard stated that a bull should not exceed 900lb and a cow 800lb in working condition. Yet today we regularly get bulls or steers of 550 or even 600kg, ie 25 -30% more than would have been acceptable not just in historical times but in the latter half of the 20th century. If we were to go back to the early days of the breed becoming recorded in the 1800's getting actual weights and heights for Dexters is difficult, but in a report to the US House of Representatives on all cattle throughout the world, James Robertson gives measurements for the Kerry bull "Busaco", no 22 in the 1890 herd book, born 1873, as 36" high and 68" in girth. This is equivalent to a liveweight of 406kg.Interestingly Proff Curran in his book gives measurements for the same bull at the age of 2yrs as 34" high and 50" girth, making the weight about 178kg, not imcompatable with the statement in the same passage that a Kerry steer at maturity weighed no more than 4Cwt or 200kg. I don't know how old Busaco was when the later measuremnts were taken, but it is interesting to see from the height and girths that a 2" diffenence in height gives almost double the weight.Remember this is a Kerry, not Dexter. Another in the same report would work out slightly lighter. I know it is dangerous to draw parallels but I cannot think that a Dexter of the late 1800's would weigh in at 50% more than a Kerry, bear in mind that at that time only short legged Dexters would be registered, and the long legged Dexter would be much closer to a Kerry than the long legged Dexters today are to the Kerry of today.
So I only want Dexters to be kept to the size they were originally meant to be.
Duncan