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Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 6:49 pm
by Elizabeth
I wonder if anyone could solve my pedigree/size question. My first Dexter cow, Burfoot Lena, (Can)2307, has topped out at a whopping 46" at the hip at age four 1/2. She is of the Woodmagic (GB) and Cranworth (CAN) lines, Sire (42")and Dam about (41"). Her half sister, of similar ancestry is 40" at the same age, so it got me to wondering if anyone out there has heard of another 'blip' in the lines. She is my best milker and has a great temperment, so the height issue is one of couriosity not one of the freezer, quite yet!
Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 9:04 pm
by Jo Kemp
By the measurements of the Sire and Dam I take it they were 'short' but had non'short in their make up. Your cow seems a non'short to me and is rather big but if put to a shorter non-short bull could produce a nice, shorter calf.
I have a fairly big red cow, not particularly beautiful but she has given me lovely calves and she is a good sort - plenty of milk good temperament etc.
the bull she is put to is a non-short but only 44.5inches at 40 months
Jo
Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 9:21 pm
by Elizabeth
Thanks Joe; I am actually trying to 'bring her down' so to speak in off spring but retain the milkyness. She is over 18 litres/day at flush and then stays pretty close to an average of thirteen litres for the remainder of her lactation. The other post about Saltair and Salty IV made me think of asking the list the question. I am about to breed her to Salty IV. Have had only bull calves from her so far. Does anyone measure height at birth, one, two etc? I really am interested in this and it is very hard to get info. So any would really be appreciated. Between us....she really is only 'pretty' to me!! And I heard that B. Rutherford talks about 'a big and not so pretty girl' in her lines and wondered if anyone knew. Liz
Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 9:37 am
by Inger
The C gene will camoflage the normal height that the Sire and Dam would have been if they weren't carriers. So perhaps your cow is just exhibiting the actual height potential in that family line.
We've got a carrier bull who has thrown very long-legged calves. It'll be interesting to see what height they eventually reach. I think there were some tall members in that bull's extended family.
Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 2:38 pm
by Elizabeth
Boy, do I feel like a neophite with all of this. Is there anywhere that this information is accessible, except of course through this site and asking questions? (Although this site and all of your experience is invaluable and I really appreciate it.) I had thought that both sire (Trillium Cluny) and Dam (Cranworth Victoria) were 'tall' and therefore would automatically be non-carriers. The same as I had thought that the top height for bull and cow in the breed standard would be an indicator for the top height for a tall Dexter and the other end of the range being 'short'. It is very difficult to get information about breeding, AI bulls qualities etc in Canada. I was very fortunate to get hold of Carol Davidson's (very informed) opinion about all the AI sires available, 3 years ago when I bought my first cow, but it would be really nice to know more about heights, milking/beef qualities, tall short etc. I really feel that I am hit or miss on this! Liz
Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 6:11 pm
by Jo Kemp
I am a believer in breeding shorter but technically 'non-short' animals - Beryl Rutherford has built up her herd on the same principle. I want animals which show a genuine height (everything has throwbacks but if you see a well established herd it should have a definite 'look'.
I bought my foundation cows from Veronica Schofield and am delighted with their progeny.
I think at least the adult height of a bull should be advertised when he, or semen is offered for sale to give some idea of what he will throw.
Best wishes, Jo
Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 6:28 pm
by Elizabeth
That is exactly what I was 'hoping' to do Jo, As far as I know, which is obviously very little!, my girls are short, with the exception of my first, but technically non-short. So is the bull semen I have purchased. I was just wondering if Lena was some sort of through back, but really it doesn't matter, I will just keep breeding her down and hope for the best. I, as Inger says in the Saltaire post, as really interested in the 'why'. Oh well, I am going to make that suggestion about the AI bulls to the Association, though. Thanks, Liz
Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 2:50 am
by Carol K
The problem with measureing cows in general is that it's done when they are say 3 years old, but they do continue to grow, so by the time they are maybe 8 or 9 that 44" bull could be up in the 46-48" region and maybe taller. I'm not sure when they stop their height growth, but we've been discussing this in the USA also, that and leg length etc.
Using a carrier bull to bring down size is not a good idea if I have it right, when you look at a carrier bull you need to add on approx 7" to his height to get an approx height if he were a non carrier (according to Cavanaugh), so you are better to use a non carrier that is on the smaller side. Did I get that all right??? LOL. And are the Brits in agreement in that thinking? Interesting subject.
Carol K
Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 8:12 pm
by Jo Kemp
Well, I am in agreement that the 'carrier' potentially camoflages the 'normal height of the breeding.
I expect my bull to reach 45inches, maybe 46 but not more... I am watching his progeny with interest and on the whole, they are compact, especially his last heifer calf and as Beryl says, it really matters what a bull throws rather than what he looks like.
Jo
Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 11:26 pm
by Dexter Happy
f you would like a picture of Trillium Cluny send me a PM with your email address and I will forward to you!
Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 12:58 am
by Elizabeth
I agree Joe, but I would still be interested to know if anyone records any stats re height at birth vs height at matuity and then progeny.or dam/sire etc. Also birth weights vs growth milkyness, beefyness etc. Oh well, it would seem that I have too much time on my hands...but I don't, it's just interest. Cheers, Liz
Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 5:24 pm
by Saffy
I think height and/or size/weight at birth may be a misleading guide to size at maturity.
I ran a large herd of friesians and on one occasion a cow had a calf which was less than 1/3 of average size and weight at birth for my herd at 28lbs but only 2 weeks early. Against advice I reared it ,(OK I am soft,) and it was breed average for height, if slightly below my herd average height but only by about a centimetre, its milk yield was only a little below average for the herd and she calved at the same time as others her age.
Possibly I am a bit of an anorak about herd statistics? ???
I can't imagine that breeds would differ greatly on something like this, so I assume birth height will tell you little about potential mature height.
Stephanie who still misses her cows terribly! 
Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 11:01 pm
by groubearfarm
Beryl rutherford has asked me to post this
"My attention has been drawn to this discussion, as some of you will know, it is something which has occupied me for quite a long time.
In my experience, the short leg carrier gives no indication of its true size. It will only surface when a calf is born, that has not collected the bulldog gene - i.e. a long leg.
I have had, rarely, a carrier of 42 1/2". although the average size in my herd today, all non carriers, is around 40". The confirmation of the carrier is different, but it is better to rely on the test, now that it is available, rather than the eye. Make sure your foundation animals are clear, and you will be able to breed for size. Providing they are free, you are away, incorporate one short leg carrier, and you are in trouble. Doris Crowe, unfortuately used a dwarf bull shortly before importing my cattle.
Cattle will mature at around five years, bulls roughly 2" more that females. I have found that birth weight does not always give true indication of eventual size. depending on dam. Providing both dam and sire have tested free for achondrodysplasia it is possible to breed for size. The small carrier will often breed a very big animal. I suspect this is because the Dexter carrier orginally picked up achondrodysplasia from a bigger breed and still carries this link.
The lethal gene affects only the growth of the skeleton, although the side effects may influence other things, e.g. chronic arthritus, may prevent it making full use of available pasture, but will not affect such things as temperament."
Beryl Rutherford
Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 12:43 am
by Carol K
Beryl, thank you for the "maturity" age. Only having had Dexters 5 years and still a newbie, I opted to test the 2 cows and 2 bull calves I have here, all have tested Non carrier so am on my way to a clear herd.
It seems that in the UK you are more apt to show carrier animals, was wondering why that is, just preference maybe? Will that change now there is a test? Will breeders aim for the small non carrier or will they not change the way they have been breeding?
Carol K
Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 1:07 am
by Elizabeth
This is facinating - and I would be the never ending question about this! I'll try and restrain myself (!) and I will definately have my girls tested. So does it follow that what I referred to as a 'blip' could very well be the absense of the gene in progeny of a line that carried the gene? Also I am interested in the issue of confirmation....and the differences between a carrier and non. (I understand that the scientific dna test is necessary to determine, but an experienced eye, however anectodal, interests me.) I do understand about the weight issue...I have sheep also, and born small is a good thing; weight gain following is the important part. Has anyone measured height at birth? and if so is there any correlation? I have sort of assumed that my big girl has reached her height at 4.5yrs, since it hasn't changed since 3yrs. I do thank all of you for indulging my questions and weighing in on this post, with your experience. I am truly interested, without experience, in the whys of the breed. Liz