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Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 6:16 pm
by Kativa
Wondered if someone out there could give me some advice??
I have some short cows and some non-short cows and am looking to hire a bull for them. Which would be best for them all - short bull or non-short bull.
Main reason for breeding is for the freezer but am interested in maybe doing some showing.
Many thanks in advance
Jo
Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 12:15 am
by Duncan MacIntyre
Hello Jo,
If you have short legged cows unless they have been tested you should assume that they are carriers of the bulldog gene, which means that if you use a short legged bull, also a carrier, each calf from such mating has a 1 in 4 chance of being a bulldog. So my advice is if you have short cows carrying bulldog gene, then use a long legger ie non-carrier bull. You will get two longs and two shorts from every four such matings, instead of 1 long, 2 shorts and 1 bulldog - so you are going to get just the same number of short calves from your long x short as from short x short. You will not get any shorts from the long x long matings, but you do not want to risk bulldogs from the short cow
If you are new to the breed and want to see what a bulldog calf is like go to Dex-inf.net and look around, maybe the easiest way is to look at the list of photos and go to the bulldog, it is one of mine from 1997 when I got 4 bulldogs from three females all within a year.
Duncan
Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 8:31 am
by Kativa
Dear Duncan
Thankyou very much for your advice - I am very grateful - we all have to start somewhere.
You have made it all very easy to understand - I don't know if you have written a book - but maybe if you haven't you should !! I have been looking around for a good book for a while !!
Once again thankyou
Jo :D
Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 9:30 am
by johnp
Minor correction to Duncan's post - the website is www.dex-info.net. I agree about the need for a book dealing with the basics about Dexters as a breed, its history, its characteristics, etc.
John
Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 11:50 am
by Kativa
Thankyou - I had managed to find it and found in most interesting.
One other question I have ,and I apologise if I seem really dim, is apart from being obviously short legged or non-short legged are there any specific measurements or characteristics between them.
I have just recieved my copy of Beryl's new book and have only put it down to do the animals and haul our hay in !! I noticed a picture of a bull and he was described as a "long leg" but not leggy. I am now even more confused ???
I have both short and non-short cows and thier youngstock and think that I can tell which are which as the calves grow, but when I 'phoned the breeder of one of my cows to say she had calved safely earlier that day he asked me if the new born calf was short or non - I couldn't tell at that early age !!! Can anyone advise - very many thanks - I'm very willing to learn and understand more ! :p
Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 8:54 am
by Sylvia
Kativa, the short/non-short situation in Dexters is one that gets more confusing instead of less the more you learn. I had a couple of very experienced breeders here recently debating whether my handsome new bull (bought as definitely non-short) is short, medium, non-short, but he definitley isn't long!!! They also didn't want to use him, despite thinking he was a very good beefy animal because he is polled which might mean he isn't quite 'right'. I ask you, what a situation for a breed to be in. The sooner compulsory testing is brought in for the bulldog gene and the stigma is lifted from polled animals the better I think. Meanwhile it is left for individual breeders to struggle on as best they can. Regarding your new born calf it is sometimes possible to pick out long/short at that early age when it isn't later, but you need more than one calf to compare. Meanwhile don't worry, you aren't being dim, welcome to the 'interesting' world of Dexters.:p
Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 10:27 am
by Inger
I don't know what the hang-up is about polled bulls. I have a polled bull that is a non-carrier and a horned bull (dehorned actually) which is a carrier. Are there any REAL statistics which point to polled bulls being more likely to be carriers than horned bulls? All this supposition could be done away with, if all registered bulls were tested for the C gene. Then breeders could use any non-carrier they wanted, whatever the leg length. No more guessing. Common sense, surely!
Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 1:46 pm
by Sylvia
Common sense? In the Dexter world, wow, there's a novel idea. I think the polled question hinges more on is he pure? rather than is he a carrier?. But my lad has a pedigree as long as your arm. Once again, common sense, what a laugh.:D
Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 1:57 pm
by Kativa
Dear Sylvia - I must say good luck with your new bull and how sorry I was to read of your loss earlier this year. Your bull sounds pretty much ideal to me !!
You're so right about things getting more confusing ! We have had our dexter's for about 8 years now - we bought our first two cows from the rare breeds sale - one was in calf and one was a yearling.One is a short and one is not !!
I never new that the polled animals were considered more likely carriers ! I personally prefer the polled especially as I have a small child and dogs and horses.Our black steer actually looked like one of the spanish fighting bulls when he had horns and now he's been de-horned he is far less intimidating !!
Can you show both polled and horned or are you penalised for showing polled / dehorned !
I've been told that there is no point in showing anything other than a short - is this so ??
Meanwhile we are getting lots of lovely gentle rain - so badly needed - hope everyone else is enjoying the rain !:D
I agree with Inger - why aren't all animals tested - then we'd all now where we stood - I know I'm new to all this but as you said "common sense ?? "
All the same very interesting - but so complicated. There we go, life would be so dull if all dexters were the same and I guess we all have are own Ideal !!:p
Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 9:04 pm
by Ted Neal
Kativa, regarding showing, we are lead to believe that it will make no difference as to whether your animal is short or non-short in the ring. Sadly this is not so - it depends on the judge. As the cost of showing is very high - it would be very useful for the judges list to contain a bit more information as to what the judge would like. I guess the proof of non-shorts is "Is there a non-short breed champion this year ?"
Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 12:18 am
by louise
Sylvia wrote:because he is polled which might mean he isn't quite 'right'.
This bit from Sylvia may have been misinterpreted to imply that polled animals are carriers. I think she means that polled animals are not the original type of Dexter.
As for me I wish they were all polled! Save a lot of bother.
"because he is polled which might mean he isn't quite 'right'. "
This bit from Sylvia may have been misinterpreted to imply that polled animals are carriers. I think she means that polled animals are not the original type of Dexter.
As for me I wish they were all polled! Save a lot of bother.
Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 8:40 am
by Sylvia
I'm with you on this, Louise, my preference is for all polled and that is what I'm trying to move gently towards.
I'll be yanking bits of hair out of all my short (or are they/aren't they short) Dexters soon too. Just as soon as I can think how to explain to them that it is a necessary thing to do.
Then we'll be set fair to get the herd we want (polled, short, beefy, non-carriers) if I live long enough...... One can but dream.
Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 9:24 am
by Martin
Hi Jo,
once again personal preference comes into play, what animals do you prefer. It is true that judges prefer shorts, although if you have the right non short, he would have to place it wouldn't he? I'm not sure if showing & breeding for beef is possible in the same herd. I have all non shorts as I believe the bigger the frame the more meat you can hang on it. I'm not suggesting that you cannot get meat from shorts, just that you can get more from a non short as it is a bigger animal. I also prefer non shorts to look at, and if you like something you are more likely to spend the time looking & learning & getting pleasure from them. There has been a number of disscusions on this forum on this subject, if you have the time it could be of benifit for you to search and read them. Isn't the rain nice?
Martin.
Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 10:42 am
by Kativa
Hi Martin - yes very good point about showing and beef production - hadn't looked at it that way ! For me producing my own hormone free meat that has lived a totally natural and happy life was the reason for having dexters all those years ago and I think I'll leave the showing to the professionals !:D
I have browsed the forum and since posting this topic have found it has been discussed previously so shall print them off to read at my leisure !!
Am so enjoying this much needed rain :p
Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 10:38 pm
by Mark Bowles
Showing and breeding for beef is very possible,we have had some fine large carcase non-short steers (450kg liveweight)from our champion short cows. If you look at some of the breeders who show with success,they have outlets for there beef in the form of Farm shops and finishing units, and making a living out of dexters.
Mark