Dexters come in 2 types - long and short, they come in 3 colours(excluding white!) and a number of shades,they have 3 basic conformations -beef and dairy or a mix of the two,they have 2 head possibilities - polled and horned(I am ignoring wrong in the head!),and they are put to a wide variety of uses.
This diversity is not a bad thing and indeed has been an important part of the Breed's growth.However for a serious pedigree cattle society it is at best a complication and at worst a mess.It makes things like judging at shows and running bull schemes a real and probably impossible conundrum.
The most difficult part of the diversity problem is the length of leg.We all know that the shorts are the most valuable in money terms and yet in terms of end use they are for the most part inferior in every respect to the longs with one vital exception - showing.The other major and by far the most important difference also favours the longs because the vast majority of the shorts carry the bulldog gene and longs do not carry it at all.
Despite all this we are prepared to give more money for shorts and thereby increase their proportion of the herd population(I now have a short legged bull for the first time in my 15 or so years of Dexters).Furthermore we are not taking the steps, however painful, to eradicate the bulldog gene that surely any other cattle society would have stamped out by now.Isnt it is time to address this issue and make the kind of changes that would reverse this trend?
There are many things that could be done but the most immediate could be to phase in class changes at shows whereby there are dedicated long leg classes which over the next few years become an increasing proportion.A further measure again to be taken over time would be to exclude short legged bulls from the elite scheme and eventually only register a short legged bull if it does not carry the bulldog gene.
I know this is a sharp nettle to grasp but do you agree that it is time we grasped it???
the Long and Short of it
-
Mark Bowles
- Site Admin
- Posts: 1290
- Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2004 6:03 pm
- Location: Leicestershire England
Heavy talk Rod, it should, provoce interest.
We showed a non-short heifer this weekend for the first time and she won her class despite being the youngest in it so good non-shorts will do well but only if they are any good and not because the judge feels they have to give them a placing to make it fair.
Our local Sutton Bonington show has had a specific class for non-shorts for the last 3 years,one of the few in the country that do.
I am bias towards shorts because we have a herd of 16 shorts and only 3 non-shorts that will have calved this year.
Next year we will introduce 4 more breeding shorts,keeping the non-shorts at about 3.This way we need only keep non-short bulls that have all passed at least stage 1 of the bull scheme.
I must admit the down side is the short steers, but hey, i love to see the traditional short Dexter, isnt that what brings people into the breed?
Mark
We showed a non-short heifer this weekend for the first time and she won her class despite being the youngest in it so good non-shorts will do well but only if they are any good and not because the judge feels they have to give them a placing to make it fair.
Our local Sutton Bonington show has had a specific class for non-shorts for the last 3 years,one of the few in the country that do.
I am bias towards shorts because we have a herd of 16 shorts and only 3 non-shorts that will have calved this year.
Next year we will introduce 4 more breeding shorts,keeping the non-shorts at about 3.This way we need only keep non-short bulls that have all passed at least stage 1 of the bull scheme.
I must admit the down side is the short steers, but hey, i love to see the traditional short Dexter, isnt that what brings people into the breed?
Mark
Mark Bowles
Linford Dexters
Webmaster
Linford Dexters
Webmaster
Well Rod, in essence, I agree.
I am an odd bod I suppose as I like the longer legged IF it is a deep, well-formed animal with shorter legs than other breeds. At my first visit to Stoneleigh, I saw a short bull and, sorry folks, was horrified. He simply wasn't a beautifully formed but small animal ... to my eyes, he looked deformed.
I have been told that the long legged dexters can get too leggy so, looking at my lot, I have a fairly plain, too tall red cow who produces good calves. When put to our bull, she produced a black calf which so far seems to be much shorter than she but still regarded as a breeding 'not short'.
We should be selecting good bulls not just anything easily obtained and I do believe that that happens rather more than is good for the breed.
In essence - I would not use a BULL carrying the bulldog gene unless he had particular wonderful attributes I couldn't get somewhere else.
At a 50% rate for short/long mating, if you wish to keep only short, sell the long ones or eat them regardless of sex.
I am breeding for shorter leg but technically non-short animals and I know that I am not alone!
Is there anyone out there who disagrees with Rod, Mark and me?
Jo
I am an odd bod I suppose as I like the longer legged IF it is a deep, well-formed animal with shorter legs than other breeds. At my first visit to Stoneleigh, I saw a short bull and, sorry folks, was horrified. He simply wasn't a beautifully formed but small animal ... to my eyes, he looked deformed.
I have been told that the long legged dexters can get too leggy so, looking at my lot, I have a fairly plain, too tall red cow who produces good calves. When put to our bull, she produced a black calf which so far seems to be much shorter than she but still regarded as a breeding 'not short'.
We should be selecting good bulls not just anything easily obtained and I do believe that that happens rather more than is good for the breed.
In essence - I would not use a BULL carrying the bulldog gene unless he had particular wonderful attributes I couldn't get somewhere else.
At a 50% rate for short/long mating, if you wish to keep only short, sell the long ones or eat them regardless of sex.
I am breeding for shorter leg but technically non-short animals and I know that I am not alone!
Is there anyone out there who disagrees with Rod, Mark and me?
Jo
If there were shorts only the breed would die out, so whats the problem with longs in the show ring? My opinion is that anything that carries the bulldog gene should not be bred from. I only have non short animals as I agree with Jo, some shorts look ugly and deformed & I could get no pleasure in looking at them. Each to his own though, but is the bulldog issue not also a welfare one?
Martin.
Martin.
Martin.
Maidstone
Kent
Maidstone
Kent
-
Duncan MacIntyre
- Posts: 2372
- Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2004 12:38 am
- Location: Isle of Bute, Scotland, UK
There is little doubt in my mind that the production of bulldog calves is a welfare issue. Pictures of one of the more presentable bulldogs we produced in 1997 can be seen on Dex-info.net . What is not posted there are pictures of the heifer immediately after the birth. She was a sorry sight. Nor are there pictures of the bones and pieces removed from her mother who also produced a bulldog in the same year. It took most of a month to get all the bits removed through the cervix, and that cow, one of my best ever, never produced another calf.
We pride ourselves on the ancient origins of the breed in Ireland, but I think we should ask ourselves if any form of subsistence farming is likely to have been content with a stock of cattle with a 25% wastage. I think it is much more likely that originally the stock would not have the bulldog gene but were not any larger that many of today's short legs. In fact they may have been smaller. This is what I am aiming at in my own herd - bulldog free traditional sized Dexters. Now that we have the DNA tests necessary eliminating the bulldog gene is entirely possible.
At a meeting in Stoneleigh some years ago I was brave enough to suggest that we should only register long legged bulls, but continue to allow short legged cows. That would eliminate bulldogs though not the bulldog gene. It would mean getting 50% long and 50% short calves, instead of 50% short 25% long and 25% bulldogs - in other words there would be no fewer short legged females for the enthusiasts to show.
Now that we can test there seems much more possiblity of breeding "long" legs ie non bulldog carriers which are indistinguishable from the show short legged ones.
Beryl Rutherford has been getting there quietly for many years, and I would recommend anyone interested to read her book.
A point we do need to watch is the increasing size of Dexters, regardless of leg length. Theyhave increased quite considerable since the breed was first formed, and the smallness of size is really one of the most important characteristics. Anyone who thinks they want them bigger should breed a bigger breed, there are plenty of them.
The Dexter breed is not the only one to have suffered from the bulldog problem - we are just the only ones to have made a virtue out of it. The Hereford breed in USA for example had dreadful trouble with bulldogs and dwarf calves which was traced to a single bull born around 1900. The problem grumbled in the background till it errupted in the late 1940s and it took till the late 1960's or 70s to get on top of the problem. Thew story is told in a book p;ublished in 1974 by Professor L P McCann, "The Battle of the Bull Runts". They were of course fighting the battle without a genetic test.
Duncan
We pride ourselves on the ancient origins of the breed in Ireland, but I think we should ask ourselves if any form of subsistence farming is likely to have been content with a stock of cattle with a 25% wastage. I think it is much more likely that originally the stock would not have the bulldog gene but were not any larger that many of today's short legs. In fact they may have been smaller. This is what I am aiming at in my own herd - bulldog free traditional sized Dexters. Now that we have the DNA tests necessary eliminating the bulldog gene is entirely possible.
At a meeting in Stoneleigh some years ago I was brave enough to suggest that we should only register long legged bulls, but continue to allow short legged cows. That would eliminate bulldogs though not the bulldog gene. It would mean getting 50% long and 50% short calves, instead of 50% short 25% long and 25% bulldogs - in other words there would be no fewer short legged females for the enthusiasts to show.
Now that we can test there seems much more possiblity of breeding "long" legs ie non bulldog carriers which are indistinguishable from the show short legged ones.
Beryl Rutherford has been getting there quietly for many years, and I would recommend anyone interested to read her book.
A point we do need to watch is the increasing size of Dexters, regardless of leg length. Theyhave increased quite considerable since the breed was first formed, and the smallness of size is really one of the most important characteristics. Anyone who thinks they want them bigger should breed a bigger breed, there are plenty of them.
The Dexter breed is not the only one to have suffered from the bulldog problem - we are just the only ones to have made a virtue out of it. The Hereford breed in USA for example had dreadful trouble with bulldogs and dwarf calves which was traced to a single bull born around 1900. The problem grumbled in the background till it errupted in the late 1940s and it took till the late 1960's or 70s to get on top of the problem. Thew story is told in a book p;ublished in 1974 by Professor L P McCann, "The Battle of the Bull Runts". They were of course fighting the battle without a genetic test.
Duncan
Duncan MacIntyre
Burnside Dexters 00316
Burnside
Ascog
Isle of Bute
Burnside Dexters 00316
Burnside
Ascog
Isle of Bute
I was speaking to an Angus breeder and laughingly compared his massive bull to my 'little' fellow. "When I started in the -60's, my bull was not a deal bigger than yours!"
Almost everyone has been breeding for size except for Dexter breeders - for me, the bulldog gene is not THE reason our animals are smaller and we should continue in the manner of both Beryl and Duncan without the dwarfing complication.
Only kept Dexters for 5 years but feel sure, as Duncan said, the original would not have relied on bulldog carriers.
So far, all in agreement! Jo
Almost everyone has been breeding for size except for Dexter breeders - for me, the bulldog gene is not THE reason our animals are smaller and we should continue in the manner of both Beryl and Duncan without the dwarfing complication.
Only kept Dexters for 5 years but feel sure, as Duncan said, the original would not have relied on bulldog carriers.
So far, all in agreement! Jo
I have to agree with Martin. When I look at old photos of the breed, they were a lot smaller but in proportion unlike a lot of the short legs that are seen now. I had 5 calves this year, 3 non short and 2 short. One of which is very obviously a dwarf. The difference is obvious right from birth.
It would take a very brave stance to erradicate the gene although the means exist via the dna test. However the reality must be that this would be devastating for a lot of herds. Would the way forward be for tests to be compulsary on all pedigree animals and recorded both on certificates and herdbooks and for people to make their own mind up as to how they breed. This is not to say that any direction is better than another but at least decisions could be made with full knowledge and that surely must be an asset for the future.
It would take a very brave stance to erradicate the gene although the means exist via the dna test. However the reality must be that this would be devastating for a lot of herds. Would the way forward be for tests to be compulsary on all pedigree animals and recorded both on certificates and herdbooks and for people to make their own mind up as to how they breed. This is not to say that any direction is better than another but at least decisions could be made with full knowledge and that surely must be an asset for the future.
Why is it that we find it necessary to give the breed bad publicity? First of all we have a bash at polled cattle and now short ones. It is going to be hard enough to sell Dexters with the subsidy changes as it is and in my (limited) experience the short cuties are far easier to sell to the general public than the other type. Also, I wouldn't fancy keeping a non short bull no matter how nice it appeared ( far too big and even more of a risk to life and limb). As long as people are responsible when selecting which animals to breed together and use the testing facilities available for the gene when in doubt, avoidance to me seems the best policy. The costs involved in removing the 'carriers' would be too great unless of course the 'Society' wishes to compensate breeders as in the OTM Scheme.
-
Duncan MacIntyre
- Posts: 2372
- Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2004 12:38 am
- Location: Isle of Bute, Scotland, UK
Who is giving the breed bad publicity? We are discussing matters which have to be taken into account when breeding Dexters. Any heritable deformity which can result in 4 deformed dead calves from 3 cows in my herd in 12 months with one cow never able to conceive again as a result of the complications is a serious issue which should be discussed. That was the result of mistaking a short legged bull with longer than average legs for a long legged bull with shorter than average. It was in the days before DNA tests were available and now that the test has been available for some time breeders should be discussing what if any are the implications for their herd. And the Society Council should be considering the matter very carefully, with any decisions the result of informed debate and not taken hastily.
No one is suggesting getting rid of all short legged Dexters, but clearly several breeders now see a way to produce traditional sized Dexters free of the bulldog gene. Until the DNA test was available that was a very difficult thing to do because when the size of long legs was reduced by selective breeding it became difficult to know whether or not they carried the bulldog gene. I think we will see quite a few herds in the next few years produce "long legs" ie non carriers, which are just as short as we see today. Some individuals are there already.
I do not think size makes a lot of difference to the potential dangers of keeping bulls, but in any case what some of us are wanting to do is to get the size of non-carrier bulls down to the same as the traditional short legged Dexter. My current stock bull was 40.5 inches at rump at 3yo. He currently weighs around 400kg. Ilsington Bramble was 44inches, and at peak weighed in at 550kg, and was short legged.
Duncan
No one is suggesting getting rid of all short legged Dexters, but clearly several breeders now see a way to produce traditional sized Dexters free of the bulldog gene. Until the DNA test was available that was a very difficult thing to do because when the size of long legs was reduced by selective breeding it became difficult to know whether or not they carried the bulldog gene. I think we will see quite a few herds in the next few years produce "long legs" ie non carriers, which are just as short as we see today. Some individuals are there already.
I do not think size makes a lot of difference to the potential dangers of keeping bulls, but in any case what some of us are wanting to do is to get the size of non-carrier bulls down to the same as the traditional short legged Dexter. My current stock bull was 40.5 inches at rump at 3yo. He currently weighs around 400kg. Ilsington Bramble was 44inches, and at peak weighed in at 550kg, and was short legged.
Duncan
Duncan MacIntyre
Burnside Dexters 00316
Burnside
Ascog
Isle of Bute
Burnside Dexters 00316
Burnside
Ascog
Isle of Bute
I think Rod may have over-simplified our choice of Dexters - yes we have short, non-short, red, dun and black, and polled and horned. Don't forget we also have "original population" and I guess non-original population. Now try and explain that to someone who wants a few cows to graze their paddock.
To get back to the original point - I am opposed to seperate non-short classes. They have to be judged as Dexters. I show non-shorts and believe that a good beast will win. Perhaps even a breed championship !! We just need judges that know what a good beast looks like and then apply the breed standard.
Whilst rabbiting on - on the question of heifer eating - it is generally regarded that a heifer that has had one calf produces the tastiest of beef. If you look back on Dexter information sheets - they did say that Dexters are early maturing and could be finished from 14 to 18 months (mine tend to be about 20 months - two seasons on grass).
All the best fellow breeders
To get back to the original point - I am opposed to seperate non-short classes. They have to be judged as Dexters. I show non-shorts and believe that a good beast will win. Perhaps even a breed championship !! We just need judges that know what a good beast looks like and then apply the breed standard.
Whilst rabbiting on - on the question of heifer eating - it is generally regarded that a heifer that has had one calf produces the tastiest of beef. If you look back on Dexter information sheets - they did say that Dexters are early maturing and could be finished from 14 to 18 months (mine tend to be about 20 months - two seasons on grass).
All the best fellow breeders
Long before I ever thought I'd actually have the land to keep cows I was aware of the bulldog calves that dexters could produce, so it was something that had become known outside the world of cattle breeding. From Beryl Rutherford's book it seems apparent that bad decisions have been made (simply by ignorance or guessing wrong) in the past. Now, with DNA testing available there is the chance to sort this out. I think there ought to be a survey of as many Dexters as possible to check what numbers are small, non carriers. Possibly they should be noted in an 'elite' (for want of a better word) list. It would be important to have as many males as possible in this list. DNA status, height at maturity, girth? etc could be logged. It would then be possible to move towards breeding with these animals. There would be no need for mass slaughter, but a steady increase in the numbers on the list as the calves came through. And just in case you think I'm suggesting extra work for someone else, if DCS agreed, gave me addresses and told me what they want on the form, I'd do it. What do you think?
Council will have at some time to grasp the nettle & make some difficult decisions. Not all breeders are 'responsible' and as we know mistakes can be made by responsible breeders in regard to what is a non short bull, you can see this by looking in the herd register of births.
As far as Jaqui's post is concerned, do you not think that the bulldog issue doesn't put off pottential purchasers? If people do their homework before buying cattle to graze their few acres, do you believe that they wont find out about the bulldog issue? It was the one thing that I had to think hard about before I purchased my first Dexter.
I bought my first Dexters just over a year ago, 2 nice heifers, the following week I bought a non short bull. I have had no problems, mainly I believe because I always remember what he is and what he is capable of doing, & never put myself in the position to have a confrontation. We seem to have a mutual respect for each other, I dont think there is any difference in a short & non short, just a few inches.
Martin
As far as Jaqui's post is concerned, do you not think that the bulldog issue doesn't put off pottential purchasers? If people do their homework before buying cattle to graze their few acres, do you believe that they wont find out about the bulldog issue? It was the one thing that I had to think hard about before I purchased my first Dexter.
I bought my first Dexters just over a year ago, 2 nice heifers, the following week I bought a non short bull. I have had no problems, mainly I believe because I always remember what he is and what he is capable of doing, & never put myself in the position to have a confrontation. We seem to have a mutual respect for each other, I dont think there is any difference in a short & non short, just a few inches.
Martin
Martin.
Maidstone
Kent
Maidstone
Kent
When I posted this topic it was to draw attention to the alarming and irrational growth of shorts with the consequent greater proliferation of the bulldog gene - the horrors of which Duncan has vividly brought home.
I am encouraged from the responses that there is support for tackling this problem and would again make a case for the positive discrimination of longs in shows which must go a long way towards nullifying the purchasing of shorts for showing and the negative discrimination against short bulls carrying the gene.
I take the point on cuteness and the attractions of the shorts to new comers but fashions change and the secret lies in the attractiveness(or otherwise!) of the head and as Duncan says not breeding too long a leg(ie minimum daylight underneath).
I am convinced the problem should be tackled and can be beaten over time without mass fallouts but,following Mao,we must take that all important first step on what will be a long journey.As ever It would be nice to hear that very rare thing - a Council view and dare I say policy.
PS If you want to see just how successful positive discrimination can be look at how many ladies are MPs compared with 10 years ago(and,he quickly added,a very good thing too! ).
I am encouraged from the responses that there is support for tackling this problem and would again make a case for the positive discrimination of longs in shows which must go a long way towards nullifying the purchasing of shorts for showing and the negative discrimination against short bulls carrying the gene.
I take the point on cuteness and the attractions of the shorts to new comers but fashions change and the secret lies in the attractiveness(or otherwise!) of the head and as Duncan says not breeding too long a leg(ie minimum daylight underneath).
I am convinced the problem should be tackled and can be beaten over time without mass fallouts but,following Mao,we must take that all important first step on what will be a long journey.As ever It would be nice to hear that very rare thing - a Council view and dare I say policy.
PS If you want to see just how successful positive discrimination can be look at how many ladies are MPs compared with 10 years ago(and,he quickly added,a very good thing too! ).
Well, I just thought I would stir you all up a bit! However, as the saying goes 'I'm with you Fred'. For the past five years, I have been working quietly away trying to safely reduce the height and proportions of my stock. I am therefore not suggesting that the existence of a lethal gene is in any way trivial and should be swept under the carpet with the aim of selling animals to the unsuspecting public but…
Am I living in blissful ignorance or what? Speaking to some very old and established breeders it clearly was a very big issue in its day but just how bad is the situation right here and now. I was vaguely aware of the existence of the bulldog when I made my first purchases. I was advised never to put two short legs together and in turn; I pass the advice on to other people. Whilst not trying to stifle constructive debate, hearing these tales of death and destruction if I were considering going into Dexters after reading this very public site, I might think again. I am very pleased for you Duncan if you are 'nearly there' but it begs the question what do you do with your surplus stock that is not. Those folk who refuse to 'grasp the nettle' are probably thinking the same thing. In addition, whilst I am on the subject where are these mythical 'paragon of virtue' bulls of 44 inches? If anyone has one (fully grown) for sale preferably red please let me know.
Am I living in blissful ignorance or what? Speaking to some very old and established breeders it clearly was a very big issue in its day but just how bad is the situation right here and now. I was vaguely aware of the existence of the bulldog when I made my first purchases. I was advised never to put two short legs together and in turn; I pass the advice on to other people. Whilst not trying to stifle constructive debate, hearing these tales of death and destruction if I were considering going into Dexters after reading this very public site, I might think again. I am very pleased for you Duncan if you are 'nearly there' but it begs the question what do you do with your surplus stock that is not. Those folk who refuse to 'grasp the nettle' are probably thinking the same thing. In addition, whilst I am on the subject where are these mythical 'paragon of virtue' bulls of 44 inches? If anyone has one (fully grown) for sale preferably red please let me know.
-
Kathy Millar
- Posts: 725
- Joined: Wed May 19, 2004 4:53 pm
- Location: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
I think it should be mandatory for all bulls to be tested for the bulldog gene and that info goes onto their pedigree. That way, the breeders will be informed and can make up their own minds.
Kathy
PS I don't like the look of the short-legged dexter, looks out of proportion to me and I suspect that the original Irish Dexter was long-legged but small. I bet it was the Victorian passion for breeding and showing livestock that pushed the breed to such an extreme and it looks as though that is still happening in the UK. In some ways I'm glad no one show Dexters in Canada....:laugh:
Kathy
PS I don't like the look of the short-legged dexter, looks out of proportion to me and I suspect that the original Irish Dexter was long-legged but small. I bet it was the Victorian passion for breeding and showing livestock that pushed the breed to such an extreme and it looks as though that is still happening in the UK. In some ways I'm glad no one show Dexters in Canada....:laugh:
Kathy
Home Farm, Vancouver Island, Canada
Home Farm, Vancouver Island, Canada