Dexter Cattle For Sale Discussion Board

When linear started back in 20011 and the next couple of years I started to wonder where our excellent females would come from, if any would. Now 5 years down the track we have Needles Hall Agapanthus scoring EX93 a few months back and Planetree Nemesis scoring EX94 a couple of days ago.
Congratulations to Steve and Kay Darnbrook on producing such a fine cow and taking part in Linear.
I can hear some of you saying under your breath that it seems like a competition, well its not, for every EX cow there are lots of others that have been scored GP or VG giving vital information to help their breeders on their forthcoming breeding plans. Linear is very long term, I have a Linford cow that has just gone EX90, she is 12 years old and had 11 calves, it has taken me 13 years from conception to produce that animal, its a long time in the making. She now has that score on her record for eternity in the herdbook so breeders in the future, when I and the cow are long since gone, can say that she was a good animal without any guesswork.
So come on you questioners, get it done, its not difficult, and you can learn so much about your herd and where to improve next.

Can I ask Mark out of interest... my cow was assessed a few days ago and she was 18 several months ago, is she the oldest to be assessed? Also she made Ex is she the oldest to make Ex?

Older cows if still in good health and conformation can still score well!

Stephanie

I think so Stephanie, that is some age, I will have to check when I get time. Well done.

Rather than merely extolling the virtues of the EX cattle, it would be helpful to have some simple percentages of cattle in the less elite rankings.
For example of X number of cattle scored, X% failed criteria, X% at minimum scores, X% at good scores, X% at elite scores.
If linear is to be a tool for improvement, it would be useful to get an idea of how much general improvement is needed before making any decision to have one's own cattle scored.

Louisa Gidney wrote:Rather than merely extolling the virtues of the EX cattle, it would be helpful to have some simple percentages of cattle in the less elite rankings.
For example of X number of cattle scored, X% failed criteria, X% at minimum scores, X% at good scores, X% at elite scores.
If linear is to be a tool for improvement, it would be useful to get an idea of how much general improvement is needed before making any decision to have one's own cattle scored.

Exactly right Louisa, if it is to have value as a breeding tool we should see all breeding cows assessed without the choice to pick and choose or reject scores. I asked for some figures a while back that correlates scores with production. The current competition style approach to it (like listing EXs in the bulletin ) cannot and should not be denied - you are treating high scores as the sole aim and ignoring, for example, the faithful 18 year old cows that have less good scores. There is nothing to account for production in the classification so an animal that has had an easy life is likely to score better than one which has had a calf every year and paid it's way. Likewise on feet, animals that have had the expense of regular foot trimming may appear better than one that has never seen the trimmer. Same goes with the bucket - feeding can influence the scores too. If the value of LA is to the breeder in knowing his/her own cattle and their breeding then the scores only need to go in the herd book, not be advertised as if it only VG & EX that have any merit at all.

As a breeding tool more info is needed as to the actual benefits associated with the scores, not just the scores themselves, then more people will be able to appreciate the benefits of having it done.

Having a scoring system that relies upon an animal being at a certain stage of production is fine for dairy herds that come in twice every day but less practical for beef sucklers that spend summer and, in some cases, winter away grazing.

It is a wonder how breeders ever managed to produce outstanding animals before linear scoring - Needles Hall Agapanthus scoring EX93 and Planetree Nemesis scoring EX94 were not produced using linear scoring.

On the subject of competition and selective scoring. With knowledge of one's bloodlines, the ability to sift the 'wheat from the chaff' and a little luck along the way, it is not inconceivable that someone will have a herd of high scorers. At the end of the day it is the skill of the breeder that is important. Having purchased their 'high flyers', a newbie straying off the path will be back to square one* in a couple of generations without someone willing to help them along the way.

*Don't get me started on the subject of 'breeding up' or you will have me on my soapbox!

I think you would be very unlikely to get an 18 year old cow with a low score....

If a cow is to make it to this age she needs her conformation to be good - this, (along with correct feeding and husbandry,) keeps her healthy this would likely be:

A cow with good strong straight back to hold up 16 pregnancies and necessary udder of milk, a cow with a good strong fore and rear attachment and that begins her "working" life with an udder well up above her hocks, a cow with excellent shaped legs and feet, a cow with good depth of body to eat plenty of roughage to thrive in order to feed herself and her calves will make it to 18 years old in good order.

This way a cow should be much less prone to health problems that would be likely to get her culled. e.g mastitis leg and foot problems, being thin.....

The udder of the cow I have mentioned above was just slightly below the hock a week after calving when it was "bursting" with milk and she has never had her feet trimmed, not even tidied for the classification.

Also the ONLY cow in my herd that hasn't been assessed is a 1st calved heifer that was dry when the assessor was here this time, she would have done well otherwise. I do NOT cherry pick.

Yes I understand exactly the use of it as a breeding tool and think it should be used across the board on the whole herd it is educational and useful.

Stephanie

Saffy wrote:I think you would be very unlikely to get an 18 year old cow with a low score....

If a cow is to make it to this age she needs her conformation to be good - this, (along with correct feeding and husbandry,) keeps her healthy this would likely be:

A cow with good strong straight back to hold up 16 pregnancies and necessary udder of milk, a cow with a good strong fore and rear attachment and that begins her "working" life with an udder well up above her hocks, a cow with excellent shaped legs and feet, a cow with good depth of body to eat plenty of roughage to thrive in order to feed herself and her calves will make it to 18 years old in good order.

This way a cow should be much less prone to health problems that would be likely to get her culled. e.g mastitis leg and foot problems, being thin.....

The udder of the cow I have mentioned above was just slightly below the hock a week after calving when it was "bursting" with milk and she has never had her feet trimmed, not even tidied for the classification.

Also the ONLY cow in my herd that hasn't been assessed is a 1st calved heifer that was dry when the assessor was here this time, she would have done well otherwise. I do NOT cherry pick.

Yes I understand exactly the use of it as a breeding tool and think it should be used across the board on the whole herd it is educational and useful.

Stephanie

But you are not coming at it from no knowledge of cattle whatsoever hence your selection of the 18 year old cow.

Exactly Jac,

Apart from being brought up on a farm under constant...gentle tuition from my father on what was required in a good cow!!! We Linear Assessed them from the moment it started and boy did it give me a shock back then. First going off we did the whole herd of just over 100 and it was an eye opener, a cow I though horrible as she had coarse teats did very well indeed as she was nigh on perfect other wise!

I had always looked at the cow as a whole and realised that by doing that I homed in and focused on the worst bit...you cannot help it - if you are trained to look for it. Linear gives a more balanced view by picking out all the different traits and then weighing them all up to give a score.

So linear taught me a great deal back then and I still use it now! As I said it is very educational.

Stephanie

I see nothing wrong with extolling the virtues of cattle that do well in linear. How is it different to saying well done if your cow has done well at a show?

I cannot understand why a breeder wouldn't have all his/her eligible animals done once the assessor was there, it is such a useful tool and as an owner gives you so much more chance to learn on the day.

Stephanie

I see nothing wrong with extolling the virtues of cattle that do well in linear. How is it different to saying well done if your cow has done well at a show?

Well that is turning linear into a competition which is something quite different.

I cannot understand why a breeder wouldn't have all his/her eligible animals done once the assessor was there, it is such a useful tool and as an owner gives you so much more chance to learn on the day.

Quite right, all bloodlines carry faults you cannot buy or breed an animal without undesirable genes. Since every Dexter alive likely carries some undesirable traits you have to decide which you will decree as most undesirable and which you can accept and live with. However, after one has gained an appreciation regarding which are the most desirable surely that person would not need to pay again to have this pointed out for the purposes of herd improvement?

I don't think it is turning linear into a competition Jac...unless that is the only reason you are doing it. However...apart from its other uses already mentioned - it is an alternative to showing for those that don't want to or can't show for whatever reason, (maybe biosecurity or don't have a trailer, those are my reasons for not showing) but would still like to find out if they have an animal that could potentially be a show stopper.

I think it is an added benefit.

As for paying again to find things out...do any of us know everything about....anything????

Stephanie

Saffy wrote: As for paying again to find things out...do any of us know everything about....anything????
Apart from being brought up on a farm under constant...gentle tuition from my father on what was required in a good cow!!! We Linear Assessed them from the moment it started and boy did it give me a shock back then.

Stephanie

What makes you think that the gentleman that assessed your herd was any more experienced than you?

Well I like to think I have a fair eye for stock Jac but these guys and gals assess for a living and whilst nobody is infallible they come - extremely well trained, do the job on a daily professional basis and certainly aren't wearing stable goggles when they looking at my beloved moo cows.

Stephanie

If you need independent verification then you pay and have them inspected. If everyone went around doubting their own abilities we wouldn't have any judges. If consistently breeding good animals was simply just a matter of selecting VG and EX animals....