Dexter Cattle For Sale Discussion Board

The Beef Shorthorn society are adopting a linear classification scheme adapted and classified for them by Holstein UK. They have come to the conclusion that professional classification is a helpful tool for serious breeders.Any dexter breeders interested in our scheme please contact the DCS office for more details or myself Mark Bowles. Read the article below on Beef Shorthorns taken from the Farmers Weekly published this week.



A new beef type classification scheme, which is hoped will equip buyers of bulls with information on the maternal traits of cows has been launched by the Beef Shorthorn Society.

The initiative, which is believed to be the most comprehensive in the beef industry, will mirror the system used in the dairy sector. It is designed to identify females with strong maternal traits and good structural soundness.

See also: Farmers earn a price premium from Beef Shorthorn

The voluntary scheme will be free to all society members for at least the first two years and will be delivered by independent classifiers from Holstein UK.

The system will consist of two parts. The first part comprises a 14-trait linear classification, which will score the cow on a scale of 1-9 for structural soundness.

The second part, called the composite classification, will comprise of a more subjective assessment looking at desirable traits in four categories – body confirmation, beef character, legs and feet and mammary, which when added together provide the animal’s final score.

This final score together with the ranking – from poor to excellent, will be automatically added to the animal’s name and made visible on pedigree certificates, Breedplan records and sales catalogues.

Frank Milnes, secretary of the Beef Shorthorn Society, hopes the scheme will be a huge step forward for the industry.

He says: “Introducing the classification scheme will help to speed up breed improvement by enabling breeders to more readily identify females with the strongest maternal traits within their respective herds, along with good conformation and structural soundness.

“It is just another piece of information the breeder will have to select their best cows. And I expect bulls out of ‘excellent’ classified cows will be highly sought after,” he adds.

The score will not be used in the calculation of EBVs, but can be used in conjunction with them to give a more accurate assessment of the type of cow that will be bred.

Mr Milnes says breeders wanting to get their cows classified must present all first-calved heifers for classification, but can get all their cows classified too. Only cows that have had three or more cows will be able to be classified as excellent.

He hopes out of the 550 registered members about 200-300 will have their cows classified over the next 12 months.

Beef farmer Sally Horrell, who runs the 55-cow Pode Hole in Peterborough, is getting her herd assessed later this month and believes type classification will help improve the herd.

She says: “Type classification will highlight areas that we need to focus improvement on and also the strong traits within our herd. We will then be able to identify where these traits have come from in our breeding programme and tweak these as we go forward, which is always our intention when purchasing the next stock bull.

“As a vendor and purchaser of breeding bulls, type classification will be an important part of our buying decisions. It is not always possible to get on farm to see the dam of a bull that we would wish to purchase, consequently in future, high classification scores throughout a dam line will give more confidence in the transaction,” she says.

Very interesting to see this happening. I am very enthusiastic about our own linear assessment scheme, and worry a bit that uptake is far too slow. Having had an assessor visit the Burnside herd last year I can honestly say it was a remarkably stress free experience once we got the visit timetabled. There seemed to be an undue delay from the application going in to DCS office and any word of an assessment day, despite the fact that I had said in April that I would need it done by 23rd June due to a planned visit to St Kilda. DCS seemed to wish to create some sort of Aura of unapproachability around the assessment team, but eventually in desparation I phoned Holstein UK and was absolutely overwhelmed by the helpful attitude. They were completely unaware of any time issues for my visit, but immediately put me in direct contact with the assessor who would be coming to me. He was at that stage in Northern Ireland, and offered to do my visiton the evening of 22nd. Then he found he could get an earlier ferry to Troon and came in the middle of the day 22nd, allowing me time to get cows away to hill grazing for the rest of the summer. Very pleasant professional people.

The use we can make of this scheme if enough take part over a number of years will be amazing. It is not just the overall score of each bull or cow that is significant, but the score for different parts, eg feet or udders, should allow us to take an informed view of the breeding behind new herd sires for example, or in decisions about AI. It allows those animals not shown to be independently assessed - even in herds showing regularly the show team is often only a small proportion of the total herd. And only about 10% of herds show regularly anyway. Linear assessment is a very valuable tool and not difficult to take part in. I plan to have more done in 2016.

Incidentally I was told by the assessor that they more or less have an itinerary around their area every year, so why does DCS not give us more info on this, and why not pass on our applications quickly to allow herds and Holstein UK to plan ahead?

We can of course thank Mark for getting this going. Linear assessment was one of the matters covered in detail at the first Dexter World Congress in 1998 and then just ignored.

Duncan

Duncan MacIntyre wrote:
The use we can make of this scheme if enough take part over a number of years will be amazing. It is not just the overall score of each bull or cow that is significant, but the score for different parts, eg feet or udders, should allow us to take an informed view of the breeding behind new herd sires for example, or in decisions about AI.

Duncan

It may be of benefit to the owner but it is of no use to anyone else unless the score sheets are available to download from the herd book. Great also if you religiously score every animal you own and breed and have the scores recorded good and bad.

I have been interested in Linear assessment since the 70s when our dairy herd was first classified.

It has some similarities to showing but without having to get up at an unearthly hour, load them up, drive for miles, or risk the herd biosecurity. So what is the catch...? There isn't the pizzazz either, frankly - nobody knows you are doing it! And this could perhaps be addressed in some way?

May I suggest that there should be some trophies or at least a trophy to aim for every year?

Also I would very much like to donate a trophy if it was considered a good/useful suggestion. My suggestion is that as bulls seem to get assessed the most, it is the cows and therefore whole herds of cows that should be encouraged. So if the idea is taken up I should like to donate a perpetual shield for the highest scoring female within each year.

Stephanie

Saffy wrote: It has some similarities to showing but without having to get up at an unearthly hour, load them up, drive for miles, or risk the herd biosecurity. So what is the catch...?

Stephanie

Do people go shows to have their animals assessed or to attract potential customers?

A bit of both I would think Jac, which is my point - nobody knows about it, it needs more publicity somehow to make it more user friendly. We can't do it "publicly" but maybe we can find a way of at least informing other members - a bit more enthusiastically about how people have done though The DCS Office in some way. Perhaps nice positive email updates on all recent linear assessments. This could have advice attached on the process and scoring.

I still think a trophy would be nice, most people like to win a trophy!

Stephanie

I think a trophy is a lovely idea. I don't think how easy or not it is that is putting people off. It is just another expense they don't need. As you know the membership is diverse. Some are content to have a a suckler herd where most if not all are being killed for beef they may even be crossing them. Perhaps they are very experienced farmers - do they really need to pay someone to tell them what they already know? Some have bought them to keep the grass down. How many people are following a 'breeding programme' trying to develop a 'strain' within the breed? Those who have been doing it for quite a while know or should know what the strengths and weaknesses of their stock are. Yes, there is the aspect that they tend to be harsher critics than an independent person. Is that a bad thing? When some have many years ahead and that is the majority, there is no immediate financial gain. Why are there more bulls than cows done when cows are in the majority? How many are committed to inspecting and recording the score of everything they breed? Is the system being used selectively as per showing? Why wasn't the 'Elite' bull scheme supported better? The requirement to inspect the progeny/parents? I think the Dexter and the Holstein are two different prospects - there was a commercial reason for breed improvement in the latter. But don't shoot the messenger. But don't get me wrong either I am not against linear scoring.

No doubt this subject will be further explored in the Dexter Focus Group.

I think that will LA will struggle until the pioneers start showing significant returns from assessed stock - at the moment, as Jac says, it is an unnecessary cost for most people, many of whom feel the same way about pedigree registration. For anyone with a herd that doesn't have to pay this is less important but their motivation will be different from those that do/those who keep them for fun, but with the least investment.

Fundamentally it comes down to the vague & mixed message which underpins the promotion of the breed. How *does* LA provide the big future for the little cow? That's the question any attempt to promote it should be answering from the outset.

Rob - ever practical and I totally see your point, however LA does sell your stock, does sell your bulls and your bulls straws and does help you select for the best.

What better proof than my own little calf Duffryn Turtle Dove. Advertised on this very site last year as being out of the first excellent cow in the UK and sold as a calf for £1000, along with two other heifer calves - also out of assessed cows!

Linear assessment works and people that use it know it does.

Also as I've said before this site is a darned good place to advertise!

Stephanie

Rob R wrote: For anyone with a herd that doesn't have to pay this is less important but their motivation will be different from those that do/those who keep them for fun, but with the least investment.

Fundamentally it comes down to the vague & mixed message which underpins the promotion of the breed. How *does* LA provide the big future for the little cow? That's the question any attempt to promote it should be answering from the outset.

Well I don't know about that one Rob. I think this hobby thing it is starting to wear a bit thin with a lot of folk.

As for the 'big future' - I love this discussion board but I think sometimes things are left best unsaid in the public domain. I could really let rip!

Sorry guys, some of you people just don't get it do you!
Costs you say..... £30 is the subsidised cost of a minimum herd visit which could include 10 cows, plus you get experienced tips from a professional assessor who is extremely helpful, sorry but that's crazy to say its expensive surely!!
The question of the cost against the return, I have just sold a heifer with a heifer calf at foot for £1250, the calf had 9 linear assessed VG OR EX animals in its green pedigree certificate, how could I have ever proved to the person buying the quality of the stock behind them without linear scores, some older ones are now not with us.
Many times in the past I have asked people that have been members for many many years what the quality of certain bulls where from the past, some would say they were the greatest thing since sliced bread then another person would deem them as rubbish, I wish I would have had linear scores to look at to let me make my own mind up. The scores are there to stay and don't lie!!
Bulls... its so important to know how the bull you are using can improve your herd, and that's exactly what it should do, improve your stock not worsen it!
I appreciate dexters are a breed unto themselves, a lot of members don't really care what the bull looks like as long as its "local" or cheap or accessible. These attitudes will never change as most of the membership are novice smallholders and dexters suit them, but there are long standing breeders and breeders that are trying to improve their stock, these are the people that should be taking LA up.
Take a look at the AI bulls around, why would you take a gamble on an old bull with no scores when there are bulls out there with wonderfull high classification scores, all the individual traits scores can be supplied to you so you can see where a bull is strong or weak and use these characteristics to improve your herd. I think its fair to say linear bull semen sells better than semen which is not scored. Hence benefits to the bull owner, £15 per bull for assessment, does it make sense, of course it does!!
As far as the admin from the DCS office is concerned, they pass on the applications straight the way to Holstein UK (HUK), it is they that then hold things up in some cases as they have 12 assessors covering the UK but only 5 assess dexters. It could be that the right man is in your area at the right time or they are not and someone would have to come out of area to do a dexter visit. These assessors are very busy and have planned schedules, as individuals the can assess upwards of 12,000 cattle a year each, they work a certain geographic area for 7 months then move on to another area.The assessors that score dexters have been chosen for their specific ability to communicate well with the herd owners, as you can imagine when they are on a commercial site and do upwards of 150/200 animals in a herd a day it becomes less personal.

Time restraints stop me from continuing but I do have a lot more to say. To be fair you need a longer conversation than this to get the full merits of the scheme.
The DCS AGM 2016 should be held at Stoneleigh, there is a cattle market there so I am hoping to organise a linear day using there facilities where cattle can come and be assessed, explanations can be given and people can get to grips with the system.

I would participate in LA but I've managed nearly 30 years without a crush and have no intention od acquiring one now. A way forward (in 4 year TB areas) could be Area Group sessions at a mart. I would take stock to such an event.

If people who buy stock are naive enough to believe that a linear score alone or two with a good score mated together will produce superior offspring they are in for a severe disappointment. Did not the great lady herself say that 'every one would be a Derby winner'. I do not profess to be an expert in the subject of genetics but know enough to say that I would be interested to see the offspring from some of the high scorers even with something behind them a few generations down the line in the hands of those who don't know what they are about. I would point out that I speak from the point of view of the breeder of a high linear scored bull.

I asked one question which needs answering succinctly. It's no use saying "you just don't understand" or providing essays on the subject as that is likely to put more people off than it attracts. I'm not saying that you need to explain it in 50 words but you do need to draw attention & keep in mind the strapline for the message to be understood and make people want to know more. Again, saying that members need to attend a meeting is just putting another barrier in the way as it is more expense before you even find out what's in it for you. They need to know why they should attend - the draw of the information alone is little incentive to someone who isn't interested in the information in the first place.

Rob R wrote:How *does* LA provide the big future for the little cow? That's the question any attempt to promote it should be answering from the outset.

I'm not criticising or otherwise commenting on the merits of the system here, I'm talking about the communication. Put yourself in the position of the average DCS member (who doesn't have the curse of knowledge) and consider what pushes their buttons. Remember that your own perspective is different because of the knowledge you hold. I don't have the answer, I'm just throwing it out there for consideration.