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Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 1:24 pm
by Spencer
Hello all and a belated Happy New Year.
As seems to be the fashion this time of year, we are considering a relocation. Currently based in the south of England, we are looking at northeast Scotland. My question is about hardiness. Last year we outwintered with no problems but this year with more stock and the wet conditions we have housed. I am not a fan. The amount of manure, straw is unbelievable, particularly as we are not mechanised! Also the animals don't thrive (coughing etc). So can I ask if Dexters are tough enough to outwinter up there (assuming dry ground), or should I stick to Highlands or Galloways. One further complication. My lovely cow is not the woolliest of Dexters. She gets a thicker coat, but compared to my steers which look like bison she seems very sleek. Is this going to be a problem or is fat cover and skin thickness more important (read that somewhere). Advice greatly appreciated.
Spencer
Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2005 7:50 pm
by Duncan MacIntyre
Hello Spencer,
I have been hanging fire on this one in case someone further north would come in. I am sure Dexters will outwinter anywhere in the UK as long as the ground they are on can take it. Here in the west of Scotland the rainfall is so high that cattle mostly end up indoors for the winter unless they are run very extensively on well drained ground. This is more for the preservation of the grazing the next year than of necessity for the cattle.
Perhaps you should contact Jenny McLellan, who is a DCS Field Advisor and is in Rossshire. She has been involved with Dexters longer than almost anyone else in Scotland - I think she began with the "Shootlands" herd which was run by Archie and Martha Crawford, famous for quite a number of bulls such as Ben McDhui. You will get her number in the Bulletin or the DCS website.
Incidentally as one whose grandfather took a very active part in Highland Cattle breeding in the 1920's if you want production per acre and speed of maturiity and prolificacy, stick with the Dexter. Sorry I cannot share my grandfather's enthusiasm for the Highlander.
Duncan
Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 3:22 pm
by Spencer
Duncan,
As always, many thanks for your thoughts.
Spencer
Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 10:19 am
by Martin
Hi Spencer,
Some of the questions you pose are answered in a topic 'Hardy Native Breeds'.
Remember, when housing cattle you need a good throughput of air. If not your cattle will cough and pass all sorts of nasties between them.
I am mechanised to a degree but do not use this all the time. I have 6 cows & a bull housed since the begining of January and there is no more straw etc. in their pens now than when they where first housed. As they feed in one area (of my choosing) and tend to loaf in the cleaner area, I use this to my advantage. The whole area has any solid muck removed twice a day. Dirty straw in the loafing area is transfered to the feed area & replaced with fresh straw. Once a week (usually Saturday) I totally muck out the feed area and move all the loafing area straw into it & put all new straw into the loafing area, this is all done by hand.
It sounds long winded, but it takes me maybe half an hour each day & an hour & a half on Saturday. I have clean cows, no build up to remove at the end of housing and my animals get used to me moving around close to them.
I am lucky in that I help my neighbor out at busy times of the year and am repaid with as much straw as I need and the use of machinery that I do not own. Even so I tend to be carefull in what I use as too much straw in the dung heap takes ages to rot down. I use on average six bales a week.
Hope this helps.
Martin.
Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 2:23 pm
by Spencer
Martin
Very useful information, many thanks. This has been my first year housing but I have noticed the 'loafing' area you mention. I usually keep this well bedded, but as you say the area around the feeder gets worse. I think part of my problem is that they use an external area which is open to the rain and not free draining enough. I think a lot of wet and muck gets tranferred in. Its good to know that housing can be less problematic as I've been checking on the climate and temperatures of -27c have been recorded in aberdeenshire. Don't even think dexters could cope with that 
! I let them out yesterday for a few hours as it was sunny and the ground dry. Mistake, the ground looks like a rally circuit! I've not seen that much cavorting from spring lambs!
On a separate thought, I notice the Traditional Meat marketing scheme emphasises local specialist butchers. There aren't any up there (not within 30 miles anyhow). Does anyone use the scheme and know whether this would exempt me from using it?
Spencer
Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2005 6:10 pm
by Kathy Millar
Hello! Calling all Albertan Dexter owners! Spencer, many Dexters live in temps down to minus forty and it doesn't matter if it's F or C. And they live outside with only a shed or woods for a windbreak. Now the wet may be a different matter as it is dry (or just lots of snow but dry) in the colder areas of Canada. If they have a three-sided shed to get in out of the weather, they are fine but must have well draining land. Mine are stuck in a barnyard that turned into a quagmire (I only have 2 cows and their calves) so I put down an 8" layer of chewed up bark which will eventually rot down but not before winter is over (or should I say, the rainy season as I am on the west coast of Canada).
Could someone clarify what "outwinter" means? Does this mean the animals have no access to shelter at all and just have to find what they can on the (usually) bare hills? And do I need to worry about providing rain shelter in the summertime? I recall seeing sheep and cattle out on the hills of Wales (and Leicestershire) in September with no overhead shelter.
Kathy
Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2005 6:41 pm
by PeterO
Kathy
Outwintering for my stock means being rotated through the hillside fields they use in the summer - I keep them off the better quality flat (wetter) fields to avoid poaching. Most British semi traditional farms have fairly small paddocks, usually hedged and usually with lager field or hedge trees. My Dexters get no man made assistance other than hay and water and find their own shelter from the wind, snow and rain (they are lower than the hedge line in most fields). They seem to thrive albeit they get a bit shaggy coated! We don't get much below -8degC though.
Peter
Peter
Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2005 6:44 pm
by PeterO
Kathy
That should read 'larger' trees not 'lager' louts
Peter
Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2005 7:52 pm
by Elizabeth
I don't think that you need to worry, Spencer. The winter that we are having in Eatern Ontario, Canada would make my cows think that Scotland was the 'tropics'! We have had a stretch of nightly temperatures of -25C - -35C and daytime 'highs' of -20. Today is the first day in weeks the temperature is breaking -10C, and we are ready to get the shorts out!! Just like Kathy, I have only two cows, but they live outside all year, only coming in to be milked. We have wind and rain shelters for all of the animals but I have found that on even the coldest of nights the Dexters will be lying around the hay bales, instead of going in their lean. The idea that they could graze all year would be 'farm utopia' here! It seems that if it isn't raining---we are haying.
Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 7:04 pm
by Kathy Millar
Sure, Peter. We all knew what was on your mind! Lager field, got to love it!
My animals are way too cossetted. I need to spend more time in the UK studying traditional animal husbandry and learning to relax more. While I was in south Wales last September, it blew up quite a storm most nights, rain, wind, like I rarely see here. I spent many a night tossing and turning and worrying about the poor cattle out in the fields, I wanted to go out and put them in the barn! Especially the little calves.
Kathy :p
Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 12:35 pm
by Spencer
Thank you Kathy, Elizabeth and Peter
Very reassuring information. They are obviously very impressive little cows to withstand Canadian temperatures! I think the key issue is wet. If the coat gets damped down it loses its insulating properties and windchill can be a problem. Peter, i'm interested in your setup as you obviously have Scottish type temperatures and the rain as well. Are all your beasts shaggy or do you have some with a smoother coat like mine?
Spencer
Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 12:30 am
by 106-1100209741
Having just read your query from January can I add a belated reply? We live in Aberdeenshire and have a small herd of dexters. The first members of which were bought last February so we are by no means authorities on the subject. Our 5 cows and older bull have spent this winter with a choice of adjoining areas - a traditional byre with indoor water, hay and bedding straw and a concreted, walled area which is uncovered but also has water, hay and bedding straw. The only time they have all been indoors was during very heavy rain. They were out again as soon as it eased off a bit. They do wander in and out at other times but I'm sure it's because they think they might be missing something if they don't check the byre out every so often. Even in a blizzard they prefer to stay and be fed outside. Our four yearling heifers were outside in a field until the very beginning of the year when, during a blizzard (an ideal time to let them see the benefits of being indoors or so we thought), we decided they would be better off indoors mainly due to poaching of the grass. It took most of the afternoon to persuade them! Our younger bull has been outside all winter with 2 cows and their 2004 offspring with no problems - they've got lovely thick coats. As regards temperatures of -27c, I don't think I've ever experienced them.
Hope this is helpful.
June
Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 11:33 am
by PeterO
Spencer
Sorry for the belated reply - busy feeding out (since January). My Dexters are pretty standard, like most animals they seem to have a summer and a winter coat - whether the winter coat gets shaggier because they live outdoors in the snow and rain I am not sure.
To be honest, I would stop worrying, providing they have some field shelter (hedges/stone walling etc) are fed and you break the ice in the troughs, I am sure the Dexters will survive Scotland (better than you).
Good luck
Peter
Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 10:35 pm
by reggie
Hi Spencer I run a herd of dexters in the north east of scotland and used to outwinter all my breeding stock but now they are housed.the reason for the change being two fold firstly to stop the poaching of the grass as we found that our fields were taking most of the summer to recover and the other reason being that it is alot easier for the stockman namely me to feed them inside as regards the cold it does not bother them either in or out.