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Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 12:55 pm
by The Whitfield Herd
Hi, I am considering the option of going organic on my little farm. Has anyone any experience of this?
I have the list of requirements, and most of it I already do/have, but it does seem very proscriptive - musn't have more that x stock/hectare X space per animal type for housing etc, and for some reason can't put rubber rings on lambs tails - unless on welfare grounds (what other grounds are there?) etc etc.
So what is the general view of this? At the moment one just has to comply with general husbandry and animal welfare etc, which I am sure we all do, but as long as the forms are filled in, are pretty much left alone. Is all this extra bureaucracy worth it?
By the way Merry Christmas to all. :D
Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 6:10 pm
by Martin
Hi,
I believe most Dexter keepers would consider themselves as producing traditional beef, and going by what respondents have said about the premium prices that they recieve for their beef, is it worth it? Would you get any extra premium for being 'organic'.
Do you worm your animals on a regular basis? Most people have too as they haven't access to 'clean' grazing. If you have a problem within your herd do you use anti-biotics?
I believe there is a market for 'organic' and as you say, most of us are almost there. That last step though is huge, I prefer to be able to use what is in my and my vets armoury to tackle any problem that may arise as and when neccessary, not wait for permision from someone sat in an office to use a drug that may be banned under their rules.
Everything that you use would have to be organic, hay, straw, compound feed, potatoes, carrots, in fact everything that they eat or lay on would carry a premium, would you get that money back plus extra premium, would you be just as profitable or would you in fact be worse off?
Besides, if it where that easy and the premiums where that great, would there not be a glut of organic produce because so many people would have converted. I have read in the agricultural press about dairy farmers going back to conventional farming because there is so much organic milk that it is being put with everybody elses milk as the market for organic has not developed enough. When this happens there is no premium, but you still have the extra cost.
As you can see from this post, I will not be converting to organic, but each to his own. If you believe it is right for you, go for it. As soon as it is warm enough in spring I will be out with my fertilizer spreader, and when I have too I will spray for weeds and worm my cattle when they go to fresh pasture.
Good luck to all on whatever system they prefer to use.
Martin.
Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2004 9:39 am
by Sylvia
I have a sneaking feeling that the whole organic roundabout is the 20th century's 'king's new clothes' equivalent. The public see all things organic as extra healthy and extra good for them, but most traditional farming methods produce just that. It is always the intensive, unnatural production methods which seem to make the headlines however I went to see a small flock of organic sheep which were the poorest animals I have ever seen with an owner saying I can't do anything about it until something goes wrong. Well it had.
I am in agreement with Martin, my animals get the best care I can give them using whatever is appropriate and in fact the amount of medicines I have to use is minimal. Although I spread manure, if I did not put some fertiliser on some fields we would not have the choice of fields for grazing that we have.
It is up to the individual but I am not intending to go organic.
Posted: Thu Dec 23, 2004 6:46 pm
by Kathy Millar
I looked into going organic too but the thought of eventually replacing my hundreds of treated fence posts with untreated ones that cost way more and don't last very long, well, that turned me right off. Also, they wouldn't have allowed me to use my best pasture which is under those big electric high tension wires. And I hadn't even looked at sources for organic hay!! I have sheep too and I can't imagine being able to keep them alive without wormers. I'm afraid that organic farming may often be a case of "doing without" rather than intelligent husbandry so animals can often suffer. It would take, in my opinion, a very skilled farmer, to raise healthy animals and crops organically but unfortunately, it is often the idealistic novice that is attracted to organic methods. Nice to see more research and educational courses addressing organic methods though.
Kathy
Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2004 12:15 pm
by Shazz
I think its another way for the government to make money off the farmers. More licences to buy and paper work to keep up to date. What has putting a ring on a lambs tail got to do with being organic, anyway? ???
Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2004 10:43 pm
by Jo Kemp
I agree with all above - if 'they' want us to go organic 'they' should swallow the hefty fees. I also keep sheep so organic isn't really an option but I bet we all use the minimum wormer/antibiotic/fertiliser etc anyway and I certainly couldn't ask for any more for the meat so no point going down that alley.
I sell "Traditionally reared" beef and lamb from native breeds and the important thing is Grass fed for flavour.....forget organic would be my advice - too many hoops to go through and you have to pay for each one!
Jo
Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2004 2:31 pm
by Peter thornton
We looked at going organic but a few things put us off:
1. Having to source organic feed.
2. The cost of subscription
3. A sheep sale at which some nice organic lambs fetched LESS than normal equivalent ones. The seller was at the next sale and didn't announce his lambs as being organic (although they still were) - they fetched a higher price!!
4. The rules about medication. I agree with the sentiments but felt that the organic management method requires a greater degree of stockmanship than I possess.
Having said all of this, I do feel that I could command a higher price for our own private meat sales, if we were organic.
It'll be interesting to see where this goes, I wonder if we will eventually see a more accessible organic code?
After all, trhere's the world of difference between a typical Lakeland suckler herd and a grain fed herd kept in a "lot" such as in the US.
Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2005 5:51 am
by Paula Edwards
I'm not sure going organic is something you do for purely financial reasons. We did it because of our wish to farm sustainably. None the less, we find our beef customers are prepared to pay a premium for our meat. Note that we don't sell through the sale yard, but privately.
Being organic doesn't necessarily cost more. With holistic management practises it can cost less. We haven't drenched for worms for over 5 years but our worm burden is very low (we get it tested periodically).
Being registered as organic can be expensive and prescriptive so we just follow the policies and practises but aren't actually registered. None of our customers are bothered about it.
The organic bodies policies are not just about the use of chemicals but also animal welfare which is why the policies on stocking rates and practises such as ringing are there.
There is lots of information on farming organically if you don't already know much about it. For us it was just a case of trying it and if it worked, keep doing it.
When the need arises, you can "bend" the rules to suit yourself. I had a cow with a nasty infection, so we used an anti-biotic on her. She can never be sold as organic beef but as she was a breeding cow and not in calf at the time, it didn't matter.
Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2005 10:07 pm
by Jo Kemp
Paula, it is the 'organic' label we are talking about - if you have not registered and gone through the hoops you are not, technically, organic... you farm traditionally in my jargon, as do I and probably most Dexter owners.
To be organic (a made up term and so is copyrighted) you have to join the club and pay the fees.
Jo
Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2005 9:16 am
by Sylvia
Thanks for pointing this out Jo, I imagine people who have gone through the hoops and paid the fees are extremely fed up with people who sell (I suspect illegally??) as organic when they are not registered.
Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2005 10:45 am
by Saffy
Hello,
What an interesting discussion.
Thats what I love about this site.
Having read with interest, particularly the last post Sylvia with her suggestion of it being potentially illegal to call meat organic without registration,would similar to organic be a suitable term for some people to use? Or traditionaly producedl, similar to organic? At least it gives the customer an instant understanding of the quality on offer as orgnaic has been rather well pushed as the "healthy option".
Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2005 6:16 am
by Paula Edwards
In Australia you are NOT required to be registered with one of the organic certification bodies to call your products organic, however, you must be abiding by the organic requirements.
This is what we do as we don't sell large quantities and our customers know us, so they are not bothered that we are not certified as "organic".
One of the points I was trying to make in my earlier email, is that traditional methods of selling products may not yield a premium and you often have to look to a different way of selling such as personal contacts, farmers markets etc.
It works well this way for us as we get the price we want without the cost of being "certified".
Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2005 9:39 am
by Martin
I think Paula has found out that you have to be carefull in how you word your 'posts' as there is always someone ready to shoot you down! Although on this site never in a nasty way.
I get your point though Paula, everyone has heard of organic, & has some understanding of what the term means. What we as traditionalists must do is explain to our potential customers, what traditional actually means. It means we do not have to jump through unneccessary hoops & our main concern is for the welfare of our animals. Ask any doubters if they could lead a truly organic life. No drugs, no plastics, no houshold chemicals, the list of no's is endless.
We do what we consider sustainable at as little cost to the environment as possible. Maybe we could do more, but on the way to work this morning the amount of vapour trails left by all the jets was amazing, what damage is this doing, not many people seem to care. If someone asks you about sustainability & organics, ask them how many flights they have made since they new that flying was bad for the environment. But can any of us do without our annual pilgrimage to the sun? (thats if you can find a cow sitter of course!)
Martin.
Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2005 10:10 am
by Sylvia
Re Vapour trails Martin you obviously missed the recent tv prog about these, those of us who didn't miss it now know that they and other pollutants have been causing global dimming, this is BAD, however, hey presto, it has been protecting us from the full extent of global warming...so not that bad then. So it appears we have a choice, go with the dimming and end up in total darkness - the end, or cure dimming and enjoy the full effects of warming .... and fry - the end. This could be evident, we were told, within 25 years. An interesting time span which a fair few of us might manage to stick around for. So we'll be able to check if the serious young scientist in the programme was right, or whether he'd pressed a few wrong keys on his computer.
Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2005 6:12 pm
by Kathy Millar
Regarding the term "organic", I have found here that no customer really knows what that entails especially when livestock are concerned. I think if you are direct marketing then the customer can ask you any number of questions about how you are raising your animals and can even come and see them on the farm. But if you are wholesaling, then that link is lost and that is when, in my opinion, organic certification or some other sort like Freedom Farmed, becomes important as that provides the buyer with third party verification. However, it still comes back to the customer and their almost total ignorance of the various organic regulations. Come to think of it, most farmers probably don't know what these regs are either, I know I certainly know only a few (there are so many!!). 
Kathy