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Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 7:52 pm
by Tim Watson
Not having owned 37 acres before or had cattle I thought it would be sensible to go on smallholding course which was today. Arriving early, I was asked what I was interested in for the day etc and explained my thinking about Dexters and why. The course tutor, a farmer in his early 40's vehemently stated that Dexters were 'nasty vicious creatures' and if I doubted his word he could introduce me to someone who had their arm broken by one. He went on to say that he was called in to another one which, having had a calf could not be approached for three days 'until they got it behind a gate and beat it into submission'.
I think I am still in shock and the course ended three hours ago! I was so close to walking out before the course even started. It was only the fact that we had paid for it that kept me in my seat. Someone else on the course was also interested in Dexters and he repeated the same this to them later.
When I aked him what he would suggest would be a good breed to start off with he recommended Charolais!! Just the size of them puts me off never mind all the issues of feed costs, poaching and wintering inside.
Now, clearly this forum is biased but are Dexters a bit 'spirited'? As a total beginner are they really a good starting point? From what I understand of larger animals (horses - we have our own) it is all about how they are treated. Surely it's the same for cattle!
Thank heavens I am off to see Beryl tomorrow afternoon as I have had my confidence well shaken.
Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 8:21 pm
by Duncan MacIntyre
This character sounds totally unsuited to take the sort of course he was involved in. In fact he sounds totally unsuited to being in charge of any livestock. The bit which disturbs me so much is his bit about "getting it behind a gate and beating it into submission". Those who do such things are without a doubt committing a criminal offence in causing unnecessary suffering. There is no justification whatsoever for such behaviour. Perhaps a word with his supervisors is in order. Do encourage the other person interested in Dexters to pursue the interest, neither of you will be disappointed.
Fear not, Dexters are not vicious or nasty. They are live animals, and there are varieties of behaviour in their repertoir, but as you say of horses, it is mostly to do with how they are handled. In my experience handling cattle and getting them to do things they are not 100% sure of is best accomplished by patient determination - milking a cow for example is not a natural thing for the cow, and being milked for the first time many will be difficult, lift their feet, kick a bit, kick the bucket over etc. But if you just persist quietly they come to accept. The minute you start beating them or retaliating in any way to their actions, you have lost the day. You may manage to "beat them into submission" on one occasion, but it only makes handling the next time round more difficult.
Most bad behaviour by animals and probably people too is the result of fear and mistrust.
Duncan
Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 8:52 pm
by Joey Baker Cresswell
When I first became interested in Dexters a few people did tell me that they had heard that Dexters could be very aggressive particularly the bulls. Having spoken to various people who actually kept them I soon found this to be totally untrue. Obviously you do get the odd one that can be slightly unfriendly particularly with a new calf but as far as I am concerned as Duncan says it is down to how you treat them as with most animals. The only thing I will say about them is they can at times be a little stubborn and sometimes they like to do things in their own time and don't like to be hurried!
Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 10:18 pm
by LISA
It is true that there are some 'nasty and vicious' Dexters, this is (in most cases) an inherited temperament trait that no amount of handling can cure. These are an absolute minority and they will be present in EVERY breed, including humans! We once purchased a cow that was evil, despite us giving her the best care and attention. I have since seen several of her offspring and they also appeared to be nuts! We sent her to slaughter.
I would advise someone starting out to purchase well handled cattle. Ask to see them led/handled/milked etc. Try handling the animal yourself before buying or see how it reacts when approached. There are loads of Dexters for sale so you can afford to be chosey. Similarly breeders should be responsible and slaughter aggresive animals and not just dump them on someone else. Temperament is an important breeding trait.
The Dexter as a breed however is NOT aggresive, it sounds like this gentleman was just extreemly unlucky.
Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 10:22 pm
by Penny
I, too, have heard various stories about Dexters over the years, including a vet who told me about getting a broken nose. But when you hear the circumstances behind it, it is usually human mismanagement. When the owner of the Dexter who had given the vet a broken nose told me their side of the story, I could see exactly why it had happened and the vet really should have known better!
I do say to people that Dexters are like the Shetland pony of the horse world..inquisitive and with charecter, but seldom malicious...that is from either breeding or poor management.
It was hard for me to listen to Janet Street Porter last night say that if she got kicked by my cow she would kick it back, even though I knew it was just for effect, so to hear that you were told it was necessary to "beat an animal into submission" is horrendous advice and as Duncan says, that person should not be involved with these sort of courses.
Enjoy your time with Beryl and see what keeping Dexters should be like.
Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 10:23 pm
by Martin
Tim, I no longer keep dexters, but when I did I certainly had no problems with them. If they mistrust you they will rather move away when you approach rather than have a confrontation. My animals calved indoors and where penned seperately for a couple of days after calving, castrating and ear tagging where done in the 12x12 pen with the cow present, as long as she could see the calf they where ok. I did have a rather spirited bull at one time, but I would never call him vicious, he was a youngster that disliked being seperated from his cows as he liked the attention they lavished on him.
I think you will find that any cow that shows any sort of aggresive behaviour would be culled, especially in a small herd (in which most Dexters are). You can always find examples that are not the norm, but Dexters are not 'Nasty & Vicious' by any means.
Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 11:28 pm
by Broomcroft
What a load of complete rubbish. Anybody who said this to you that they couldn't control an animal "until they got it behind a gate and beat it into submission", shouldn't be dealing with livestock and should more likely be reported to the RSPCA. That sort of way of going about things is appauling stockmanship and will actually create the problem.
Any cow, whatever the breed, when they have calved can be dangerous (obviously!!) especially if they think you might beat them into submission! You give calvers space and always make sure your actions tell them you are not a threat, it's not a problem. They are not normally worried until they have actually calved and see the calf, so you can assist fairly easily more often than not.
Just visit some herds yourself Tim and make your own mind up.
Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 1:59 am
by clacko
i would say most dexters i have come across are pretty quiet, normally spoilt rotten. we have one which i would say has "character" but is not nasty or vicious, ours have definatly got quieter since we have had them, and one which i would love to show has dragged me round the yard on occasions until i gave up, this is one i brought in and she is a cracking animal until you put a halter on her. the fear that she shows is more like human fear and she will spook as quick as anything. not sutible for showing. if you show your cattle a warm confidence you will get the same back from them in time, one of the first things i told vic was never chase my cows when we want to catch them, if you treat them right they will nearly always come to you when you call them up. paul
Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 9:43 am
by Saffy
Hello,
I have farmed all my life and during that time have kept Friesians, Herefords, Charolais, Limousins and Belgian Blues. I am here to tell you that - you can get a loopy animal of ANY breed! More Lim than any other I think but the loopy Charolais was the most dangerous cow we had, she was very big, very mean, very fast and very accurate, our biggest worry was - how to get her off the farm without her squashing someone!
Not long after I took over the milking of our 100 cow herd, I spotted in the distance a heavily in calf Fresian heifer, spooked by something. She was acting like a race horse in a race - galloping flat out across one small field, she jumped the hedge, carried on across the next 15 acres, flew that hedge, kept going flew the next hedge and then trotted and stopped short at the end of the next 20 acre field! She was completely loopy, until to my relief after she calved she calmed down and was absolutely fine! However there were one or two from time to time that gave me a good kicking. Unlike the short tempered man mentioned at the beginning of this thread, I found the best way to deal with this for the sake of milk yield and the sanity and in time placidity of the cow, was to talk quietly be patient and put the milking machine back on gently. Mind you I did notice that if I cooed gently to them that if they didn't stop kicking me they would end up in burgers they didn't actually understand what I was saying and I did feel a little better about it!!! :;): All but one over the years gave in and stopped the kicking a stunningly pretty Fresian cross Jersey. The only one we ever had, no idea why she was such a nasty tempered little minx, so we tried putting calves on her instead and she wouldn't have them either - so it probably was burgers for her!!!
Most of the wonderful little Dexters I have now were largely untouched by human hand and so had to be quieted with a bit of tact. We put them in for a week or two and had to be quiet around them at first, then allowed them out, gave them a few nuts twice a day and spent a little time with them. By the time they had been here two months most would let me scratch their backs and one or two insisted on it! You get out what you put in, they are intelligent and don't like to feel as if they are being forced into a corner.
Stephanie
Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 12:27 pm
by Saffy
Further to my above rather long post - one of the my first Dexters - a heifer, having got used to handling by us loved the attention so much that she refused to go and eat the hay that we put in the rack until she had her back scratched and would close her eyes and wrap her neck around me whilst I did it.
Unfortunately she needed a caesarian a few months later and was so quiet and gentle by this time that she didn't need to be held or tied whilst the vets did the operation. She washed the calf and mooed with delight once it was born.
Then she happilly played hostess to half the neighbouhood children during the following week as they came to visit and stroke her and the calf, whilst their parents took flash photographs. I was VERY careful with this at first though, as I am acutely aware that ANY bovine CAN change suddenly at the sight and smell of strangers near her baby! However Mallard, (firmly my favourite cow, despite certainly not ever likely to be a show winner,) just loves people now she is sure that WE are gentle creatures.
Stephanie
Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 5:43 pm
by davidw
I'm quite a newcomer to the Dexter world, and when I brought my first group home, the very first thing they did was to jump the fence and spend the next 2 days leading me and several others on a merry chase around a 60 acre field.
But I have worked with them since that event [OK I admit they are spoiled] and they are now calm and quite easy to handle. Even the bull. My vet tells me that she often has problems with Dexters when TB testing, but mainly its because the owners are not organised. Allow time to get them in and settled and they will be no problem. Rush around in a mad panic and they will never cooperate.
One thing I learned years ago when dealing with the family dairy herd [of friesians]. No matter how docile, they are big powerful animals, so try not to allow yourself to be in a position where they can crush or injure you. Merely putting your arm through a feed barrier to stroke an animal can result in a tossed head and a broken arm - but at no fault of the animal.
Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 7:34 pm
by Steve
Hi, I don't know who organised your course, but the tutor should be reported! Wot utter rubbish, as other people have said, all animals respond to the treatment they receive from their handlers. I don't know where you live you are in the country, but you're welcome to visit us in Gloucestershire to see 100+ FRIENDLY dexters. We had dexters precisely because my wife wouldn't let me have charolais or continentals as they were to big for her to handle! Dexters are addictive & she adores them! We would not sell anyone anything with a difficult temperament, they stay with us!! In the 14 years we 've had dexters we have only sent one cow for slaughter due to her temperament when she calved, as she got worse as she got older! Good luck with your smallholding
Steve
Posted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 2:27 pm
by davidw
I must be doing something wrong. My "Nasty and Vicious" Dexters seem to have developed a wicked sense of humour. One heifer seems to take great delight in sneaking up from behind and pulling my shirt out of my pants.
Our neighbours always complement us on how well behaved they are - one even commented on how "lovely" they were as I extracted 4 of them from her garden, where they had been "sharing" apples and left over vegetables.
Posted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 2:46 pm
by Broomcroft
Actually, I'll admit it, I do have a dangerous dexter. He's a steer and he is so incredibly friendly, you have to keep a close eye on him because he wants to play. I have never encouraged him, but he is just naturally completely without fear or inhibitions and will come up behind you and gently (gently by his standards!!!) nudge you to get attention. Taking him to the abattoir is going to be very difficult. You just can't ignore him; he thinks he's human. Glad I didn't keep him as a bull!
Edited By Broomcroft on 1259329662
Posted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 5:50 pm
by bjreroberts
I always try allow plenty of time when moving my Dexters, I take the view it takes as long as it takes. So when I had my annual TB test this week I allowed 3 hours before the vet arrived on Tuesday.
For the reading today the vets were meant to ring and confirm the time yesterday, when I rang them at 8.30 this morning they said he would be there around 9.30. By the time I got to the field, gathered some haylage and called them across the field it was 9.10. They all went straight in the coral apart from the 3 most timid, for which I had to resort to nuts and closed the gate just as the vet pulled up.
15 minutes later we were all done and the test was clear, the vet said he wished all the tests went as smoothly with such lovely calm cattle.
I have to admit I was amazed at how well behaved they were today. I do find them to be quite strong willed but never aggressive.
Edited By bjreroberts on 1259340726