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Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 8:45 am
by Broomcroft
We have never used AI but I am considering it instead if keeping bulls. What I am interested in is possibly using semen from foreign bulls, or at least having that as an option. So my question is that if the semen is from a registered bull in say, America or Australia, will the offspring be registerable into the UK society herd book? And can semen be obtained for foreign bulls? Where from?
Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 11:46 am
by wagra dexters
Interesting, Clive. What is it about the prospect of using AI that you hope to achieve, if you don't mind me asking?
Bulls are a jolly nuisance. The only way to have successful AI programs is to have no bulls. It is far too easy to use bulls if they are there.
Without bulls it is a case of having to be watching very closely for discreet body language, or a sniff of the air. The cows aren't always obvious, and sometimes no cow is going to be game enough to mount a cow who is bossy off-season, so her bulling beacon will not change colour. It is possible to catch all the cows though, and greatly rewarding when it happens.
It is not difficult to do, but would be a lot less strain if a type of shearers sling could be devised for Dexter AI techs.
Margaret.
Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 4:31 pm
by Broomcroft
I'm considering my options. I know nothing about bulls in other parts of the world, but when considering AI, then one of the advantages COULD be not being restrained to one country. I have seen people in other countries talking about using British semen, so have assumed there is a route to enable this to happen and that would include registration (otherwise it would be almost pointless).
From a practical point of view, keeping bulls is difficult and expensive. It probably doesn't seem it when you're used to it and accept it, but they actually dominate so many things like when you breed, when you wean, when you take away heifers and what fields you use. Three of my best fields have footpaths through them. My stock bull is not aggressive but I had to feed him recently to build him up a bit and he's now got used to seeing buckets. So now when any walker goes through these fields, he chases them looking for food. My fault, never even thought about it, really silly, but it has added yet another dimension to my stock management. I've got 4 bulls, only one registered so far, but will be reducing shortly to probably just 2.
I'm going to have a chat with my vet but any advice gratefully received.
Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 5:29 pm
by Saffy
Do people share bulls between say two herds to simplify the stockmanship problems.
It would make sense if two herds got together - agreed on the purchase of a bull and each had him for 6 months of each year. That would keep the TB testing and isolation to a minimum but should mean that the bull would have less time ...er well bored.
It is something we are beginning to think of for future years with our bull as he matures, he isn't yet ready for a great deal of work but we will be looking to find him more than 3 cows at some point!
Stephanie
Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 6:50 pm
by Duncan MacIntyre
I would think very carefully before changing to AI only, especially with a herd as large as yours. For the most part the data needed to guide us which bull to use by AI is just not there yet with Dexters. In a way that has been an advantage, because it has kept the breed as genetically diverse as it is. This is one of the main findings of the Genetics Project. The gentics project has also shown us that there is remarkably little influence on Dexter genetics from outside the breed. Without wishing to denegrade Dexters abroad, many countries have had to use much more grading up to raise their numbers of Dexters, and I would think that it may well be too easy to import outside influences to the breed. Look at the modern Angus, Shorthorn and Hereford to see what I mean.
On the practical side picking out cows in season is no easy business on a large scale, and will be very time consuming. Very few commercial suckler herds rely on AI totally, though they may use it for selected individuals, or use synchronisation programmes. The synchronisation of cows can have advantages for beef herds if it allows them to use bulls of superior genetic merit by AI compared to what they could afford to buy and use as bulls. Again I doubt we have the data to justify this in Dexters.
Perhaps your difficulties with paths can be minimised by restricting your cows to a very tight calving pattern, even consider having Spring and Autumn groups, then you would have bulls out for two short but separate periods and it might be easier to manage to have them in fields with no path.
With the current trend to larger herds we will need to be very careful not to lose breed characteristics as more scientific selection methods are likely to be used. EG gene testing for tenderness etc may influence bull selection and result in unexpected changes.
Duncan
Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 8:20 pm
by nuttalls
just to add to this, we tried AI about 3 years ago, useless no calves to show, a bill for the job, a bill for storage in the end we gave the semen away which woz cobthorn dandelion. i wonder did anyone use it? The AI man does lots o cows round ere. so wont be tryn that with dexters agen!! 
jean jordeth
Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 10:35 pm
by domsmith
ai can be exciting, it gives you the chance to use bulls you cant afford!
maybe not the same with dexters but withour angus you can have the pick of the best bulls in the world and really try to improve your herd. who knows what you might breed.
but for large scale suckler breeding who wants to be constantly managing cows in and out, a bull will be easier and cheaper no doubt. bulls are a pain but so will be getting 100 cows ai`d
what will be the average succes rate 60-70% after 2 goes. 30 cows not in calf
dom
Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 10:52 pm
by ann
If you only have a few cows and are on site most of the time then AI can be a useful option however at £35 + your semen costs, storage and vat you don't want to get it wrong to often.
I am currently running three bulls, one would be much easier but I do take quite a few visiting cows for people who have brought their stock from me and this way it does keep them occupied. I do also still use AI on the odd cow when I want something a bit different, or on anything too closely related.
When I double suckled everything I got very good results from AI and sometimes this can also depend on the quality of the semen you are sold as when semen is taken from commercial breeds anything below a certain % of quality is ditched and they start again, however when you do it privately this may not be the case.
A few years ago I got one calf from 4 straws, the last time I use AI I got 2 calves from 2 straws. Different bull and he was much younger when the semen was taken.
I have never had any luck trying to AI a cow before 12 wks after calving so this can be a headache if she doesn't hold as it then throws your calving right out of sequence
It is a good way of bringing in new blood however if you have a closed herd
Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 6:22 am
by wagra dexters
When I did my AI course, the teacher told us that it cost 7 straws to get a replacement heifer. He was working on mainstream stock figures.
With respect, Duncan, I have been most frustrated with the more recent imported AI bulls from UK. Other than Hedgehog not one of them has had a respectably long pedigree. They are only 6, 7, & 8 generations of Dexter breeding and I am having to look closer to home for longer pedigrees.
We don't know that particular bulls are pure, given that overseas countries have not used DNA, so when all we have to go on is pedigree, and the appearance & performance of offspring, we must take that on face value. From here on in, we know exactly the breeding of our stock.
Of the 59 bulls listed on the Australian AI semen listing there are 3 from upgraded dam lines, 1 Au & 2 NZ. All the other bulls with any introgression at all have the Parndon 'finches' to thank, on either side of the Atlantic, or can be traced back to UK appendix cows. If there are purer bulls in UK other than the Woodmagic bulls, please do us a favour and have them collected for export.
Margaret
Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 1:48 pm
by Broomcroft
Thanks for the help. I didn't realise AI was so difficult. What I am going to do is just go down to two bulls, one mainly for beef and one mainly for pedigree, or something like that.
Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 11:34 pm
by TonyH
Just on your thoughts Clive about using overseas bulls, one of our neighbours has been for several years breeding polled South Devons and now has almost all of the UK polled bloodlines. He has 'found' a different strain overseas but is finding it virtually impossible to get a licence to import the semen (obviously being an animal product), and has been waiting almost a year for permission.
Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 8:53 am
by Broomcroft
Yes, that's the sort of thing I mean. It COULD open up all sorts of different routes. For example maybe, I see that in other parts of the world, it appears from what is said that reds are quite rare, I have loads of reds! If your friend is successful, can he then register the offspring with the South Devon society do you know?
Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 3:13 pm
by marcus
I asked my AI man about the success rate for it and he said the national average is 40%.
I think mine will be similar, thats why I,m still looking for a good non-short bull. Are there any out there!.
Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 6:04 pm
by Colin
Marcus, to hire or to buy ? Where are you based ?
Colin
Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 7:17 pm
by TonyH
As far as I understand it, once semen is allowed in then you can register the offspring as normal. It apparently all depends on where you want to import from and how DEFRA perceive the degree of risk from that country in terms of potential to bring in disease.