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Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 2:57 pm
by evolen
Hi there,
Since i heard a lot of the Bulldog Gene and short legs. My Question: Are there any short leged dexters out in the field there are tested and there are not carrier of the Bulldog Gene? Or is it a role that all short leged dexters are carrier of the Bulldog Gene?
Thanks
Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2004 9:53 pm
by Duncan MacIntyre
Hello Evolen,
Traditional short legged Dexters are short legged because they carry the bulldog gene. So I think it is safe to say that there are no true short legged dexters which will test free of the gene. That is short legged in the accepted sense of the term.
But several breeders are trying to reduce the leg length of long legged dexters and some of those are very difficult to tell by looking whether they are carriers or not. Even some breed society inspectors have difficulty with this.
Duncan
Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2004 7:44 am
by evolen
Thank you Duncan,
In Switzerland there are a few at the moment, which want to bann all Bulldog Gene Carrier Bulls from breeding, what i have to say to them?
Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2004 8:48 am
by Peter thornton
OK both feet first!
We have a situation where we cannot safely breed two animals which represent what we are trying to achieve. If we do this then 25% will be born dead.
The "perfect" Dexter is an accident - an outsider might say it was a freak.
This is no way to develop a breed. If a breed will not "breed true" then it is not a breed at all - merely a collection of animals that happen to have a benign deformity.
This aspect of "Dextering" must put off more potential breeders than any other.
So yes, in my opinion we should breed out the "killer" gene.
However I hasten to add that I am a fairly recent member of the society and I don't believe in joining something then immediately trying to change it.
But you did ask!!!!
Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2004 1:51 pm
by evolen
That's all right,
But i heard from Scientists that's not only the "the one and only Gene" will bring dead Bull Dog calfs. The say, that there are a few Gene which will cause dead Bull Dog calfs.Do you think, that "Bulldog" is a diseas, which is situated on one onely Gene?
Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2004 12:10 am
by Duncan MacIntyre
Hello Evolen,
Yes the Dexter Bulldog is produced as the result of the foetus being homozygous for one particular gene which was identified by Austratlian researchers a few years ago. There is now a test which uses samples containing DNA such as blood or hair to identify carriers of the gene. All short legged dexters will carry the gene, long legged dexters will not.The long legged ones can be proved not to carry the gene. For any breeders in Switzerland who already have short legged dexters, they can avoid any risk of having bulldog calves by using a long legged bull on short legged cows or vice versa. I was involved a few years ago in drafting a letter to the Swiss authorities to try to explain this to them but I think they did not believe us.
Those who say, "this is not the only bulldog deformity", yes this may be true, other defects do occur, but they are very rare and will occur from time to time in any breed of cattle and have no particular relevance to the Dexter breed.
I hope this answers your points, if not let me know.
Duncan
Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2004 3:27 am
by johnp
At the World Dexter Congress in Australia in October 2002, a paper was given by the researcher who identified the bulldog gene in Dexters. She also presented some research results from studies of the size of Dexters (in Australia). She reported that some Dexters with the bulldog gene were taller than some without the gene. In her view, it was quite reasonable to breed small Dexters through a breeding programme which did not include those with the bulldog gene.
John Paterson
Hamilton, New Zealand
Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2004 8:01 am
by evolen
What do think about a generall bann of all "bull dog carrier" bull for breeding?
Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2004 8:21 pm
by Duncan MacIntyre
Several years ago, before the gene had been identified, the Dexter Cattle Society had a meeting at Stoneleigh to discuss this amongst other issues. Having had discussions with people both in UK and in Switzerland and Germany, I could see that certain groups might call for a complete ban on Dexters because of the problem. I put forward the idea of refusing to register short legged bulls, and of course it was not popular. But the effect would be that instead of short legged matings with a 25% risk of bulldog, we would have long/short matings or long/long matings only. The result for the short legged breeders would be that they would have no bulldogs. Instead they would have had an extra long legged calf instead of every potential bulldog. In the show ring we would have lost the exhibiting of short legged bulls, but to be honest very few of them move well in the ring.
Now that there are some non-carrier dexters around which are shorter than carriers we would need to use the genetic test. I think we are a long way from that in UK but I believe there have been difficulties in Switzerland over the issue and banning bulldog carrying bulls might be acceptable as an answer. But of course the genes would still be carried on in the short legged females.
Duncan
Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2004 8:57 am
by evolen
Is it true, that a few Dexterbreeders in UK have banned through breeding the Bulldoggene out of there herd? But instead of Bulldogcalfs they have to fight today against lots of dead-birth?
thank you
Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2004 9:46 am
by Sylvia
evolen
I have also tried to get this information, although I put it a slightly different way. i.e has the emphasis on bulldog calves (and avoiding them) masked the fact that Dexters do have a higher than average rate of other mishaps at birth? I don't think I got any firm answers, hope you have more luck.
Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2004 2:53 pm
by ann
Hi If I read the question correctly Evolen is asking if dexters are prone to givng birth to dead calves.
I have been breeding dexters for over 17 years and apart from one heifer I brought at a sale and she lost her calf possibly due to the move, my vets diagnoses, not mine and the occassional full term calf which has been lost to breech births, some thing which can happen with any animal. However I never breed short to short, If dexter breeders follow this rule, the instance of birth mishaps is far lower in dexters than a lot of commercial breeds, especially as a lot of people keeping dexters work full time, so there is bound to be the odd mishap.
However I can not speak for people breeding short to short.
Ann
Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2004 12:57 am
by Inger
I can only compare Friesians to Dexters, but I can definately say that the Dexters have far fewer calving problems. I have yet to see one of our Dexters giving birth. They always seem to deliver in the wee small hours when we are asleep. When I look out the window in the morning, I just see a new calf on the ground and an attentive mother cow staying very close to her calf. One of our cows even gave birth to twins, completely unaided. We have had very few after-birth problems either. Dexters are definately a low maintenance breed in my view.
Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2004 1:34 am
by Inger
There are actually two types of bulldog mutations. There is the BD1 version, which is spread worldwide and there is a BD2 version which is only found in New Zealand I think, unless some NZ animals went to Australia. Testing for these two genes is now becoming very common here in NZ. Fortunately I only have two carriers in my herd and mate them to a non-carrier bull, so I don't have a problem, as long as I test each long-legged heifer calf that either of them have. I don't keep any bull calves as yet. I've decided not to register any carrier calves. Our Dexter Association here in NZ has no plans to ban the registration of carriers as far as I know. Its being left up to the choice of individual breeders.
Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2004 7:20 am
by evolen
Thank you Inger,
I was this Sept. and Oct. in NZ and was pleased to visit a few Dexterherd (even Nancy's "Miliking Dexter's). In NZ you have at the moment the same discussion about Bulldogcarriers banning or not. But you may at least discuss! In Switzerland we can no more showing the "do's" and "do not's" in Dexterbreeding. The fear of Bulldog is that big, that we have to kill the best Dexterbull at the moment in CH.......