Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 11:50 am
Can anyone post some pictures to show the difference between the 2 types of red or is there no phenotypical difference. I had a look at the charts on the dexterbeefonline site. Very useful. Thanks!
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Red colour - Wild red versus true red
https://dextercattleforsale.co.uk/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2106
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Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 12:46 pm
Someone will no doubt post some pictures. But what Kirk said last year was that wild reds can look like a pure red. I think that's right.
Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 8:40 am
The wild red has black skin and true red has pale skin.
Cornahir Outlaw is a wild red, and the others are true red, like the Knottings, etc., with the pale ring around the eyes.
There is a big difference in the phenotype. Wild red is dark because of the black hairs, and can be very dark at times.
Wild red bulls have very dark heads, black almost, but steers and cows don't.
There are 4 not 3 Dexter colours, if what Carol Davidsion says is true, and I believe it is, that wild red is a legitimate Dexter colour, equally as legitimate as dun, and I think it most likely came to the surface by the same means, ie. closing the herd.
Wild red can very occasionally have a donkey muzzle when bred to some lines, which tends to look jersey-ish, but there is no other indication in the phenotype to indicate that there is introgression, no brindling, and no concave facial structure nor big jersey eyes on the females, in my experience anyway.
I would seriously like confirmation from Carol about this topic, if anyone is in touch.
Not all Outlaw calves are wild red, by the way. Some are true red.
It would be interesting to hear others views, expecting to be hounded down by my suggestion that there are 4 colours.
There are 4 colours in our paddocks anyway, and the most attractive is the wild red, apparently.
Margaret.
Edited By wagra on 1216107874
Cornahir Outlaw is a wild red, and the others are true red, like the Knottings, etc., with the pale ring around the eyes.
There is a big difference in the phenotype. Wild red is dark because of the black hairs, and can be very dark at times.
Wild red bulls have very dark heads, black almost, but steers and cows don't.
There are 4 not 3 Dexter colours, if what Carol Davidsion says is true, and I believe it is, that wild red is a legitimate Dexter colour, equally as legitimate as dun, and I think it most likely came to the surface by the same means, ie. closing the herd.
Wild red can very occasionally have a donkey muzzle when bred to some lines, which tends to look jersey-ish, but there is no other indication in the phenotype to indicate that there is introgression, no brindling, and no concave facial structure nor big jersey eyes on the females, in my experience anyway.
I would seriously like confirmation from Carol about this topic, if anyone is in touch.
Not all Outlaw calves are wild red, by the way. Some are true red.
It would be interesting to hear others views, expecting to be hounded down by my suggestion that there are 4 colours.
There are 4 colours in our paddocks anyway, and the most attractive is the wild red, apparently.
Margaret.
Edited By wagra on 1216107874
Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:08 am
Hi all, a kind Dexter person emailed me colour questions had been raised, and thought I might help. Hi Margaret...hope all is well with you and yours down under.
Let's see.
All pure reds and all reds with black ANYWHERE can be E+/E+ or E+/e or e/e. No black skin. All colours of red can be found in all genetic combinations. So, the light reds can be any of the above three combinations. Ditto the dark irish setter reds. Ditto reds with black faces and legs. Ditto any red with no black and a white switch. In other words, the black faces and/or legs and the 'mealy' nose, and white or black switches can be found in all forms of red at the main colour locus.
There is ample evidence that ALL, I repeat, ALL the other bits and pieces are from separate modifiers at separate genetic locations. While some would prefer not to recognize that Dexters started out horned dwarf just about anything (and I have lots of pics of differing horn shapes to prove that one), it's no wonder we have such a Joseph's coat of many colours, literally, when referring to the variety and combination of modifiers present in the breed.
In any given animal, the two colour locus genes, and the (brown locus) result in the visual colour:
black & black (null & null) gives black
black & black (null & brown) gives black
black & black (brown & brown) gives dun
black & red (null & null) gives black
black & red (null & brown) gives black
black & red (brown & brown) gives dun
red & red (null & null) gives red
red & red (null & brown) gives red
red & red (brown & brown) gives red
Both reds act exactly the same, and can look exactly the same, so you don't need to distinguish one from the other.
The brown gene ONLY gets expressed when combined with black. If with red, the red overtakes the brown, and it doesn't show.
Having said that, many animals that are hetero for black show a tinge of colour, especially in the summer when things fade a bit in the sun.
Does this confuse the issue, or help? regards, carol.
Let's see.
All pure reds and all reds with black ANYWHERE can be E+/E+ or E+/e or e/e. No black skin. All colours of red can be found in all genetic combinations. So, the light reds can be any of the above three combinations. Ditto the dark irish setter reds. Ditto reds with black faces and legs. Ditto any red with no black and a white switch. In other words, the black faces and/or legs and the 'mealy' nose, and white or black switches can be found in all forms of red at the main colour locus.
There is ample evidence that ALL, I repeat, ALL the other bits and pieces are from separate modifiers at separate genetic locations. While some would prefer not to recognize that Dexters started out horned dwarf just about anything (and I have lots of pics of differing horn shapes to prove that one), it's no wonder we have such a Joseph's coat of many colours, literally, when referring to the variety and combination of modifiers present in the breed.
In any given animal, the two colour locus genes, and the (brown locus) result in the visual colour:
black & black (null & null) gives black
black & black (null & brown) gives black
black & black (brown & brown) gives dun
black & red (null & null) gives black
black & red (null & brown) gives black
black & red (brown & brown) gives dun
red & red (null & null) gives red
red & red (null & brown) gives red
red & red (brown & brown) gives red
Both reds act exactly the same, and can look exactly the same, so you don't need to distinguish one from the other.
The brown gene ONLY gets expressed when combined with black. If with red, the red overtakes the brown, and it doesn't show.
Having said that, many animals that are hetero for black show a tinge of colour, especially in the summer when things fade a bit in the sun.
Does this confuse the issue, or help? regards, carol.
Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 5:12 am
Oh, my goodness, and the kids told me they were going to connect the gates to the electric fence when I got old & senile!!
Carol, have you seen black skinned reds from any line other than Outlaw? We have one that I thought of as 'wild red', by Robson from Bindalee Undine, I can't remember if you met her. She is by Outlaw but bright red with pale skin.
All the dark skinned ones I have seen have had Outlaw in the breeding. We also had a dark skinned red steer by Robson from Bindalee Upsidaisi, a black by Outlaw.
Thank you very much for coming on board, just have to go and adjust my memory data bank.
I do beg your pardon, everyone else, for being so smug as to think I had it all together.
Margaret.
Carol, have you seen black skinned reds from any line other than Outlaw? We have one that I thought of as 'wild red', by Robson from Bindalee Undine, I can't remember if you met her. She is by Outlaw but bright red with pale skin.
All the dark skinned ones I have seen have had Outlaw in the breeding. We also had a dark skinned red steer by Robson from Bindalee Upsidaisi, a black by Outlaw.
Thank you very much for coming on board, just have to go and adjust my memory data bank.
I do beg your pardon, everyone else, for being so smug as to think I had it all together.
Margaret.
Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 7:23 am
No sweat, Margaret. I started out thinking the bright reds were little e and the irish setters were E+, because that's what my samples showed. Once John Potter got going with huge numbers of various combinations, I got straightened out. While at Cornahir, before the big herd reduction, all the animals I saw had black noses, so.....I guessed they were all E+ and the black nose went with it. But, a while later, Beryl came up with a photo of a pink nosed Cornahir, so I had to throw that idea out the window, too. Mind you, I don't know the cow's red genotype, so wasn't sure just what goes with what. meanwhile, there were knottings that were carrot red, and related red knottings that had black faces and legs, and they were all little e. They had pink noses. Go figure.
When I first worked on the dexter colour, I was told flat out by the genetists working on DNA colour that I didn't know what I was talking about when I said E+ Dexters were red, and we had a dun colour that was recessive. Impossible they said. Refuse to believe it, they said. You amateurs are dangerous, they said. It wasn't until John Potter in the U.S., with his MSc who could talk the talk with them, and had breeding records and colour photos, that they finally grudgingly came around.
I don't think I've actually seen 'black' skin tho'. Got a pic of it? regards, c.
When I first worked on the dexter colour, I was told flat out by the genetists working on DNA colour that I didn't know what I was talking about when I said E+ Dexters were red, and we had a dun colour that was recessive. Impossible they said. Refuse to believe it, they said. You amateurs are dangerous, they said. It wasn't until John Potter in the U.S., with his MSc who could talk the talk with them, and had breeding records and colour photos, that they finally grudgingly came around.
I don't think I've actually seen 'black' skin tho'. Got a pic of it? regards, c.
Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 9:44 am
Carol, it appears that I don't have any photos of the dark reds but will take some in the morning.
Margaret
Margaret
Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 4:10 pm
Margaret, not arguing dark red, just questioning black skin. c. PS: this doesn't apply to the 'black' noses, I'm talking the body skin itself. Aren't genetics FUN! me.
Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 6:07 pm
How do you descibe a calf born red ---really red--- then turns black by 2. Only a red spine line and muzzle left when he went the journey.
Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 6:33 pm
Louise
If you go to Broomcroft Reds you'll see pictures of some red Dexters. The little red calf with her black mom was very red with a black nose, and really long black eye-lashes like she had makeup on. She turned black with a red stripe down her back.
Edited By Broomcroft on 1216229877
If you go to Broomcroft Reds you'll see pictures of some red Dexters. The little red calf with her black mom was very red with a black nose, and really long black eye-lashes like she had makeup on. She turned black with a red stripe down her back.
Edited By Broomcroft on 1216229877
Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 10:59 pm
what is the name of the first bull picture 25
lovely pictures, are you pleased with your line bred calves, Im due to have some this autmn
sorry if Ive changed the subject
monica
lovely pictures, are you pleased with your line bred calves, Im due to have some this autmn
sorry if Ive changed the subject
monica
Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 7:56 am
Monica
The 2 red bull pictures "25" and "Joseph" are the same animal, Moonshine Joseph our stock bull. I have had a heifer and a bull out of putting Joseph to a red daughter, and both offspring are (to me) probably the best looking animals on the farm. What they will be like in other respects has yet to be seen.
I don't know whether line-breeding brings size down, someone in the sheep world said it did, but both offspring are smaller (non-carriers) than you would imagine. That could be just because of the cow though.
I will be using his red son across his red half-sisters en-mass shortly, so we will be able to see results on a bigger scale next year. Fingers crossed.
Edited By Broomcroft on 1216277847
The 2 red bull pictures "25" and "Joseph" are the same animal, Moonshine Joseph our stock bull. I have had a heifer and a bull out of putting Joseph to a red daughter, and both offspring are (to me) probably the best looking animals on the farm. What they will be like in other respects has yet to be seen.
I don't know whether line-breeding brings size down, someone in the sheep world said it did, but both offspring are smaller (non-carriers) than you would imagine. That could be just because of the cow though.
I will be using his red son across his red half-sisters en-mass shortly, so we will be able to see results on a bigger scale next year. Fingers crossed.
Edited By Broomcroft on 1216277847
Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:13 am
I have posted this for Margaret (Wagra) who will explain all about it for you now I am sure!
Stephanie
Stephanie
Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:15 am
Stephanie, thank you again.
This is Bonfire, by Elmwood Robson from an Outlaw cow, who is from a Bogevagen Hector (Knotting) cow.
She belongs to a grandson, his choice, so is here to stay.
Her skin is black, pity about the muzzle. The black facial hair is a winter coat marking, which is not there when she moults, and her muzzle isn't as obvious in summer either.
Her summer colour is brilliant. She is always the favourite of every visitor and we could have sold her 10 times over had Brennan not laid claim.
Margaret.
This is Bonfire, by Elmwood Robson from an Outlaw cow, who is from a Bogevagen Hector (Knotting) cow.
She belongs to a grandson, his choice, so is here to stay.
Her skin is black, pity about the muzzle. The black facial hair is a winter coat marking, which is not there when she moults, and her muzzle isn't as obvious in summer either.
Her summer colour is brilliant. She is always the favourite of every visitor and we could have sold her 10 times over had Brennan not laid claim.
Margaret.
Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 7:39 pm
Thank you Clive, have to say I couldnt tell and neither could my other half when I asked him-was there much time difference in the photos. Anyway hes a nice bull and I was tempted to come and look at him when you were trying to sell him but I really like our bull and since I am trying not to keep many heifers I decided to try line breeding the three Ive kept
My calves are very brown when born some people think they are duns but by 3months they have stsrted to go black, some always have that brown tinge in the coat. I have duns and I think they come in several shades from very pale to deep chocolate, are they all correct?
My calves are very brown when born some people think they are duns but by 3months they have stsrted to go black, some always have that brown tinge in the coat. I have duns and I think they come in several shades from very pale to deep chocolate, are they all correct?