I currently trailer my cows to the nearest Dexter bull (about 40 miles away) where they reside for 6 weeks - this costs (with an element for petrol) at least £50 per cow. The alternatives are AI (too much hassle) or I am thinking of buying in a 6 month bull calf running him on to maturity (18 months)? and slaughtering him for beef at about 24 months.
Questions: Is this sensible for a mere 3 cows given no subsidy? What age can I expect the bull calf to be active? Is 2 years too late to kill the bull for meat, if so how old?
Thanks
Peter
Bul Calves
Peter
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Additional question - are bulls more hassle than AI - my fences are reasonably good
Peter
Peter
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Duncan MacIntyre
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- Location: Isle of Bute, Scotland, UK
A young bull may well serve cows at 9m on, but probably best not to rely on this till about a year. We are currently enjoying eating Burnside Brigadier, born 5th March 2002, ran with a cow and a heifer from Nov 2002, first calf born to him 01/01/04 (ie served cow 24/03/03 or thereabouts) second calf 23/05/04. He ran with other cows from 01/05/04 till end of June when he was slaughtered - so we will have two crops of calves. He went straight from the field to SH, and as the butcher warned me lacked fat cover. But as you may gather from my input on the post regarding hay feeding he certainly was not overfed through the winter. From our limited experience of killing and eating our own, I would say that the best meat by far was a heifer, steers a close second and the two bulls we have killed poorer for both flavour and tenderness - but both of them were killed straight out of not very good grass whilst actively running with females. Both incidentally, were killed mainly because of temprament.
My experience of AI has not been anything to write home about - probably about 30% settling rate with me as a vet doing the heat detection or synchronising, and a very obliging AI man who times his visits very willingly.
If you have good fences a young bull of good temprament should not be too difficult to keep at home, but they do hear heifers and cows quite a distance away and if they learn to jump can clear a surprisingly high fence. Likewise neigbouring stock can respond to the bull and try to get to him.
If you have young heifers of your own they may be a problem, depending on you options for keeping them separate. I must admit I sometimes have had heifers calve under two years old because of this. I also had a very hairy moment or two last spring when Brigadier, at 15 m decided he could jump gates and fences and fight with his 4yo father.
If you can keep a bull why not keep one for several years and keep you herd as closed as possible - a good idea from the disease point of view. You could start with a young bull and if he behaves well just keep him. More reliable than a younster for settling cows, and no time an money wasted waiting for him to mature.
Duncan
My experience of AI has not been anything to write home about - probably about 30% settling rate with me as a vet doing the heat detection or synchronising, and a very obliging AI man who times his visits very willingly.
If you have good fences a young bull of good temprament should not be too difficult to keep at home, but they do hear heifers and cows quite a distance away and if they learn to jump can clear a surprisingly high fence. Likewise neigbouring stock can respond to the bull and try to get to him.
If you have young heifers of your own they may be a problem, depending on you options for keeping them separate. I must admit I sometimes have had heifers calve under two years old because of this. I also had a very hairy moment or two last spring when Brigadier, at 15 m decided he could jump gates and fences and fight with his 4yo father.
If you can keep a bull why not keep one for several years and keep you herd as closed as possible - a good idea from the disease point of view. You could start with a young bull and if he behaves well just keep him. More reliable than a younster for settling cows, and no time an money wasted waiting for him to mature.
Duncan
Duncan MacIntyre
Burnside Dexters 00316
Burnside
Ascog
Isle of Bute
Burnside Dexters 00316
Burnside
Ascog
Isle of Bute
I think it is very difficult to choose a good bull at 6 months. When they are born calves often seem to give a hint of potential (but it is only that) and as time goes on, like any animal including man, young bulls can look quite plain. I remember going to Veronica Schofield's with the Northern group and she showed us some young bulls, explaining that her preference at 9 months was no longer her favourite. I really believe that simply using any bull is a mistake.
I met another breeder who buys in bulls at around 12 months, uses them and then disposes of them. The year I saw his herd the bulls had not developed well at all and frankly I would have killed them without using them as the progeny would be likely to be second rate.
I am a new dexter breeder (4 years) and used AI at first then borrowed a 15 month old bull and now have a homebred bull of some quality (his son is looking good too but he is only 4 months old so we'll see) If you do decide to buy a very young bull buy from someone with a really good herd and one with good bloodlines - this should increase the odds of his turning into a reasonable sire
Good luck Jo Kemp, Breoch herd
I met another breeder who buys in bulls at around 12 months, uses them and then disposes of them. The year I saw his herd the bulls had not developed well at all and frankly I would have killed them without using them as the progeny would be likely to be second rate.
I am a new dexter breeder (4 years) and used AI at first then borrowed a 15 month old bull and now have a homebred bull of some quality (his son is looking good too but he is only 4 months old so we'll see) If you do decide to buy a very young bull buy from someone with a really good herd and one with good bloodlines - this should increase the odds of his turning into a reasonable sire
Good luck Jo Kemp, Breoch herd
Problems with neighbouring stock, already touched on, should not be underestimated. It is possible to be severely restricted as to where you can put your own bull and his girls because of neighbours who tend to think if they mention they have put heifers or their own bull next to yours (or if you see they have) it is your problem not theirs even if yours were there first.
Louise
I assume the cost of hiring a bull is similar (if not higher) than taking the cows to a bull? Plus all the associated problems of keeping it in etc. There also seems to be a shortage of bulls to hire in the West Midlands area.
Duncan
A belated reply - keeping a calf to 24 months then starting again presumably avoids the problem of inbreeding which you would have if you kept a 'good' bull and kept your farm bred heifers? Surely it is easier to change the bull than the cows/heifers?
Peter
I assume the cost of hiring a bull is similar (if not higher) than taking the cows to a bull? Plus all the associated problems of keeping it in etc. There also seems to be a shortage of bulls to hire in the West Midlands area.
Duncan
A belated reply - keeping a calf to 24 months then starting again presumably avoids the problem of inbreeding which you would have if you kept a 'good' bull and kept your farm bred heifers? Surely it is easier to change the bull than the cows/heifers?
Peter
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Duncan MacIntyre
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Peter,
If you are rearing your own and changing you will have a young one to contend with during the last months of the old one, or face a possible gap. Chanaging bull by selling one and buying another not too difficult. Worrying about inbreeding is I think an over-rated pastime amongst livestock breeders, though obviously it should not be carried too far, and certainly if inherited defects are cropping up should be avoided.
The question of keeping heifers depends on the size of your herd, whether it is expanding or static, and what the age structure is. When I had my first few dexters I used to sell all the heifers and just keep the same cow or cows breeding. Now I have a definite idea of what I want to achieve breeding-wise and find that the old cows get in the way of the next generation!
It certainly a good idea to consider all your options and you are getting a fair selection of valid advice from the input on this thread. iI hope we are not just confusing you!
Duncan
If you are rearing your own and changing you will have a young one to contend with during the last months of the old one, or face a possible gap. Chanaging bull by selling one and buying another not too difficult. Worrying about inbreeding is I think an over-rated pastime amongst livestock breeders, though obviously it should not be carried too far, and certainly if inherited defects are cropping up should be avoided.
The question of keeping heifers depends on the size of your herd, whether it is expanding or static, and what the age structure is. When I had my first few dexters I used to sell all the heifers and just keep the same cow or cows breeding. Now I have a definite idea of what I want to achieve breeding-wise and find that the old cows get in the way of the next generation!
It certainly a good idea to consider all your options and you are getting a fair selection of valid advice from the input on this thread. iI hope we are not just confusing you!
Duncan
Duncan MacIntyre
Burnside Dexters 00316
Burnside
Ascog
Isle of Bute
Burnside Dexters 00316
Burnside
Ascog
Isle of Bute
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Peter thornton
- Posts: 326
- Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2004 4:41 pm
I have done just what you suggest. I purchased a young bull last autumn which is now 20 months old and happily serving my cows. I will judge the results and decide on whether or not to keep him another year or 2.
I have hired a bull in the past and you do need your fences in good condition. I think it may be easier if the bull has grown up on the farm, but that remains to be seen.
A couple more points:
You need to think about your breeding policy. If you want to become a leading breeder with good prices and show wins etc, then you need to examine pedigrees etc. You will find that purchasers will do this and the right names will help sell your stock.
If, like most of us, you just want a good looking herd that you are proud of, then my only advice would be to try to get a good look at the bulls parents and siblings. That can be a better guide than the animal itself.
Final word: Dexter bulls do not command particularily high prices. A really nice bull seems to go for around £500.
I have hired a bull in the past and you do need your fences in good condition. I think it may be easier if the bull has grown up on the farm, but that remains to be seen.
A couple more points:
You need to think about your breeding policy. If you want to become a leading breeder with good prices and show wins etc, then you need to examine pedigrees etc. You will find that purchasers will do this and the right names will help sell your stock.
If, like most of us, you just want a good looking herd that you are proud of, then my only advice would be to try to get a good look at the bulls parents and siblings. That can be a better guide than the animal itself.
Final word: Dexter bulls do not command particularily high prices. A really nice bull seems to go for around £500.