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Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 5:32 pm
by Colin
I need to trim back the growing stumps of my bulls horns. He had his horns removed prior to me buying him. I had an experimental attempt today, securing him in a crush and using a small hack saw at the end of one stump. He still had sufficient head movement to make it obvious this was not going to work. Any tips on the most suitable tool (cheese wire perhaps) and technique to use ?
Colin
Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 5:58 pm
by Duncan MacIntyre
Without seeing and having hands on it is difficult to know what is best to be done. Why does he need it done? Is it purely cosmetic, is it for safety, or is the tip growing into his head? Some use embryotomy wire for dehorning, but I find it is difficult to get a margin of skin off all round, and prefer to use a saw. I have in the past spent upwards of £60 on a proper dehorning saw only to have it disintegrate the first time I used it, and now have gone back to using a joiner's Tenon Saw. The broad blade is a great help.
If there is a long spikey bit you may get away with sawing it without any anaesthetic, but if you need to remove a substantial bit you may well hit blood and nerves, and will need to use local anaesthetic. Mature bulls often have a second nerve to the horn area from behind and complete anaesthesia can be difficult to achieve. Sometimes sedation is needed as well which would make it a job for the vet.
One of my own bulls has stumps but since I do not show him and there is no mirror in his shed I just leave them alone, but watch to see that the curly end of one is clear of his head as it may grow round some day.
Duncan
Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 7:02 pm
by Colin
Thanks for the reply Duncan. My main reason for wanting to trim his horn stumps is that all the rest of the herd have no horns, having had their horns buds removed as calves. When they get a little rough with each other at the feeder, I don't want him to cause any damage. He's not aggressive, so I'm not so worried about me, but he does stand up for himself with the others around food. When I had him a year ago his stumps, from memory, were around 1-2inches long. Now they are around 3-4 inches and a little rough on the ends. So I'd like to just trim them back and smooth them off.
Colin
Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 9:35 pm
by ann
Hi just a word of caution, we had a steer who had been dehorned and unfortunately there was some regrowth which was growing into his scull so we took it of and ended up with a blood bath and we had a real job stopping it bleeding and we only took the tip of not the whole regrowth. If you have 4" on both sides I would personally be inclined to get a mature vet to take them off.
I say mature as I doubt any of the young ones would be experienced in taking horns off
JMHO
Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 11:44 am
by Inger
Our 8 year old bull's horns have grown a bit and I'm thinking that one of them may have to come off as its turning inwards. Unfortunately our local vet is a small woman and I don't think she's strong enough to work the really big loppers needed for this job. I'm also worried about the blood loss.
We usually put him and the polled bull in the same paddock at the end of the breeding season, but this year, it might not be a good idea. 
Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 1:45 pm
by Duncan MacIntyre
I never use loppers to dehorn, always use a saw. and the secret for blood control is to take plenty off so that the blood vessels which have to be clamped arse in skin and not horns. With mature bulls this will involve quite a big cut area but it will heal ok, no need to burn if the operator clamps the major bleeders with artery forceps and twists them off. You can't do this if you just skim off some of the horn because the vessels then come out of hard horn and can't be clamped so easily.
Use plenty of local anaesthetic, and put some round the back of the horn as well. Fractious bulls might need tranquilised as well as the local anaesthetic - sif that is likely better to give it before you start rather than after you have tried and got them excited.
If a bull is going to be dangerous because of horn stumps far better to go for taking the whole horn off again rather than just trimming the tips. With the force a bull uses the tip does not need to be sharp to be dangerous.
Duncan
Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 5:12 pm
by Colin
Blimey! Nothing like cutting toe nails then. This sounds like major surgery and I'm so pleased I asked first. I'm going to do nothing without discussing with my vet and may just live with this. My bull is young but friendly, so it's not a major issue.
Many thanks for the information, this was important.
Colin
Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 7:51 pm
by Sylvia
Our vet has used loppers for horn removal on younger animals and you are right Inger they aren't a tool for smaller women to use, the last time a young female vet tried it my contractor (who always helps with cow work) had to close them for her. There are always irons heating so that significant bleeding can be stopped quickly. And after giving the anaesthetic injections we do wait for it to take effect rather than starting straightaway.
Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:06 pm
by Farrant
I can't believe the sexist remarks on this topic.... unbelievable! I am a female (almost qualified) vet... and have never had any problems dehorning cattle! Whether it be using wire, cup dehorners or scoop-type dehorners I have always successfully done the job! ... as long as there is adequate restraint and the local anaesthetic has worked, then any vet should be more than capable of dehorning a cow/bull. I am really very offended! Have a bit more faith in female farm vets... it is people like you who make entering the world of farm animal practice such a struggle for us female vets! Grrrrrrr!
Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:48 pm
by Duncan MacIntyre
Hello Farrant,
Perhaps I have been concentrating too much on the dehorning and not paying enough attention to what others were saying. Fortunately my daughter (5ft 1ins) has not read it all or she would be incandescent too. She works with me in very mixed practice and tackles anything.
Duncan
Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:05 pm
by Sylvia
As usual, I am just reporting what has happened on my farm. Not hearsay, not my imagination, just the truth.
A lot of females vets have come to do various work on the farm over the years and I have got on very well with all of them, which is more than I can say for one or two males who I have been thoroughly disgusted with.
I am so glad you are such a capable young (almost qualified) vet, Farrant, with so much vast experience of dehorning cattle and I am sure everything else but my goodness you will need to work on your attitude because at some stage you will have to ask for help with something or risk not doing the job properly and if you get so offended so easily you will certainly lose the goodwill of the farmers you apparently wish to work with. It may not be essential for small animal work but a sense of humour is a great aid for farm work, try to develop one.
Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:20 pm
by Farrant
Thank you Duncan...
Sylvia - I just took the comments personally - perhaps you caught me on a bad day! I just wanted to stand up for young female vets who tend to get a bit of a rough time. I wouldn't want people reading this discussion board to get the wrong idea about our abilities as vets and then have less respect for us in the future. I am sure your incident was a one off. Sorry if I was a bit grumpy in my reply but I just felt very strongly about the subject!
P.S. I do have a good sense of humour ...most of the time! 
Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 9:31 pm
by Inger
Farrant, our female vet is very good with PDing cows as she has small hands and thinner arms than a lot of male vets. These are assets. However, because of her small stature, she doesn't have the muscle bulk of farmers who have done heavy physical work for much of their lives. She can handle dehorning our calves, but as I have seen how much muscle power is needed to work some of these large loppers, I doubt she could manage. I know I can't and I'm a lot bigger than she is. I haven't seen her use wire, but that would probably be the best option for her. Anyway, I'm sure she and I will work out some solution to the problem.
Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 5:27 am
by Kathy Millar
I don't know if this is applicable, but I had the horns removed on a heifer when they were about 8" long and me vet used that obstetrical wire. He used both Rompin (spelling?) as a general and a local too. Good thing as he took the horns right done to the skin and I could see in to the nasal (?) cavities. Really grossed me out but the horns never regrew and her head looks beautiful still. Can't remember much bleeding but he may have cauterized it.