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Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 3:48 pm
by Broomcroft
Did you know that tenderness has nothing to do with marbling? Because I didn't.
Tenderness is to do with (apparently) the amount of intra-muscular fat which is microscopic and you can't see it. When cattle are grass-finished, they build up this invisible intra-muscular fat (they may have visible marbling as well of course). Whereas grain-finished animals build up lots of visible marbling (they may have the invisible as well, I don't know).
That explains why one of my butchers keeps telling me my carcasses are too lean, then he phones back weeks later and says how people have remarked on the excellent eating quality and flavour of my beef. I couldn't understand why this was happening because our beef is always tender, with very full flavour. He is looking for visible marbling and assuming that's what creates the tenderness and flavour. The flavour too, according to the book I'm reading is also down at the microscopic level.
That's what is says in the book I'm reading. But you all probably knew this already and it's only dunce here who didn't. Or maybe you don't agree?
Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 5:52 pm
by Saffy
I am ashamed to say I don't know really and I should.
When I farmed in a relatively big way it was just that quantity of animals, beef and sheep that is, dairy I was much more into the quality.
It is only now that I am keeping a few sheep, cows , pigs , ducks, chickens, for ourselves that I have put considerable energy into looking for the very nicest for having about the place and eating quality....poor show really!
Saffy
Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 6:43 am
by Broomcroft
Here it is straight from the book:
"Marbling refers to the deposition of fat in small bands between the muscle fibers, appearing as small streaks of fat within the meat. Marbling has become a common way to gauge the carcass finish of grain-finished beef cattle. Grain-finished meat tends to show high incidence of intramuscular fat when the grain-finished animal reaches its finished slaughter grade. Contrary to public opinion, however, it is not the marbling that makes the meat tender and flavourful, but rather intramuscular fat deposited within the meat fibers on a microscopic level.
Meat from grass-finished cattle is leaner and consequently shows less marbling between the meat fibers than grain-finished beef - yet it contains sufficient intramuscular fat within the meat fibers so that the meat will be as tender as heavily marbled grain-finished beef."
Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 12:57 pm
by Jo Kemp
Mine usually have marbling and as they are grass fed I suppose the invisible fat also! How exciting and no, I had no idea about all this!
Had hoped to find out about differences in meat quality at the meeting at Moredun in Edinburgh run by Quality Meats.....cancelled of course
Jo
PS any info re the poss. outbreak in Solihull?
Jo
Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 2:10 pm
by Broomcroft
I've heard nothing yet re FMD in Midlands. It'll probably be on tele / radio later in the day. Very worrying. Fingers and everything else crossed.
I've been researching and the marbling and invisible intramuscular fat content are usually (not always) linked but not directly. You can have beef that is grass-fed lean and without any marbling whatsoever according to the sources I have been looking at, which seem to be the right ones as far as I can tell. All I know is that I have produced some lean carcasses that were very tender and full of flavour, and it seems that this is why. When I say lean I do not mean thin, I just mean without much marbling. I am not saying you want to do that and a lot prefer to have actual fat, it's just interesting.
Apparently, the way you measure marbling is by looking and judging, and the only way to measure intramuscular fat is by using ultrasound. So I have visions of everyone buying ultrasound machines to use on their cattle so they can judge when to send to abattoir. The results are very accurate they say but I'm not sure live cattle would cope with it!
Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 4:51 pm
by Woodmagic
Fascinating stuff, I had read that marbling was not necessarily an indicator, but knew nothing about intramuscular fat content! What will they be subjecting our animals to next. Am wondering whether your original test by old-fashioned tasting was not the simplest and best? Unfortunately you need to capture your customers before they are completely put off beef, through the marketing of dull, force fed yarded continentals.
Holding my breath on the F.M., every fresh announcement seems to make the situation worse.
Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 10:54 am
by Broomcroft
From what I have read and understood (or misunderstood!) so far, a key factor is that marbling and intramuscular fat are not the same. But, they are I think usually (but not always in some cattle) linked to a degree. What I deduce is maybe that when you see marbling in Dexter beef, it is probably a "guide" as to the intramuscular fat content, but it is not a direct link, in that as the marbling increases so does the intramuscular fat content but not in the same ratio. The graphs I have seen suggest the ratio drops off. And it seems to me that at least in the steers I slaughtered this year that the intramuscular fat is there before any real marbling became apparent.
For anyone interested in healthy beef, IGER and the EU Healthy Beef Project are working on hard feeds that produce the same (and much better) results than grass or clover by using linseed and other natural products in the feeds. I am trying to find such feeds at the moment to help with healthy winter beef production (possibly). The only problem with the research, it seems to me, is that it stops at the beef. They measure the omega-3/CLA etc content of the beef to decide whether it is healthy or not, and if it's got a lot of the good things in it the assumption is that it is indeed healthy (for humans). This is probably a reasonable assumption, but I do just wonder whether anything that is not exactly normal, like cattle eating fish-oil products, would be used and retained by the human body properly. And what about the animals!
They also identify different grasses, legumes, clovers that have differing fatty acid contents.
I have started a mini-website that is nothing more than a load of links to anything to do with grass-fed and/or healthy beef (and lamb). It is at www.grassfed.co.uk. Please note that I don't know what I'm talking about...I'm just researching, interested and think there is sort of a link with Dexter.
Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 12:21 pm
by Inger
Well its a way of keeping occupied while you wait for more news from DEFRA. Hoping you start to hear some good news for a change. 
Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:50 pm
by JamsHundred
Hi Clive,
I cross-posted your comments on the marbling which I found quite interesting, and have been asked for the name of the book you were reading. Would you be willing to post it?
A long distance thanks for your concerted efforts to promote Dexter beef.
Judy
Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 5:09 pm
by Broomcroft
Hello Judy
The book is "Grass-Fed Cattle" by Julius Ruechel. At least that is where I picked up the statement I copied in above.
It's full of some exceptionally interesting outlooks on rearing cattle and looking after your farm (organic-low-cost thinking), with almost zero equipment and little or no static fencing! And on animal selection and behaviour. A lot of what he talks about is based upon a massive scale.
The other info I got from the web, various research institutes and universities etc. The book should be on the DBO Amazon bookstore (UK only).
"Long distance thanks"...can I ask where are you?
Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 4:48 am
by Inger
So do you feel the advice given in the book is not entirely suitable for small holdings then Clive?
Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 7:59 am
by Broomcroft
Inger - It all seems to make sense to me and he says in the book that what he does can be applied to small outfits. Then in another part of the book he describes how certain apsects of cattle behaviour, like the herding instinct when in different size groups "even as small 100-200 at a time" is beneficial to the land. So yes, some of the advice can only be applied to what most Dexter owners would regard as very large groups and herds, but he would regard as tiny, but most advice I would say is useful and can be applied in some sort of way even on a small scale.
In there, or another Argentinian book, they talk of a farmer who has his main production farm, and then another farm just for raising replacement heifers. The heifer farm has 10,000 head or cows. His production farm I think has 40,000 head.
Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 12:11 pm
by Woodmagic
Those figures put the speculation on Dexter numbers into perspective.
Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 4:59 pm
by Kathy Millar
If you read the American publication "Stockman GrassFarmer" you will meet an incredible number of very big and very well-managed grass-finishing ranches. Some of these do use a scanner on their animals in order to judge "quality" before they butcher. Some even have their own abattoirs!! And one of the ranchers (female) tests a steak from each carcase to judge it's quality so some still believe in the old-fashioned way
Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 5:17 pm
by Broomcroft
If she has 40,000 head she must be quite large by now!