Page 1 of 1
Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 1:56 pm
by Saffy
I am interested to hear other opinions on wormers. Not just for cattle but other animals as well. e.g. I worm my horses only 3 times a year as they are on rotation with sheep and don't seem to need it more often. I don't worm my dogs every 6 weeks as it seems a bit over the top, they don't eat rabbits etc so they are wormed 3 to 4 times a year, unless we have a puppy which gets done far more often.
I believe wormer is sold to "us" a little too well. The companies have the upper hand because the thought of little Fluffy or Ermintrude being infested with the nastly lttle wriggly things understandably makes us all squirm and run off to buy anything guaranteed to get rid of them whatever the price and usually without any real proof that it is needed.
I have several questions about worming:
a. How often would we generally be expected to need to worm our cattle?
b. Should we be worming the youngstock more often than the older cows, even if they are in the same field, if so how much more often and what defines young?
c. Should we, as we do with horses use different wormers at different times of the year and rotate so the worms don't become resisitant.
d. If we bothered to do a worm count before buying a wormer would we be likely to find that we don't need to buy a wormer after all? Also how well would the worm eggs be able to be identified, would it mean buying a certain wormer if it was necassary?
e. Has anyone done a worm count/had a worm count done? I know it requires a microscope which I don't have.
f. Does anyone know what it costs to have a sample analysed?
Stephanie
Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 4:13 pm
by Sylvia
Starting from the end and working back.
f. About 3 years ago I took samples from all the groups of animals. 7 groups came to about £130 inc VAT.
e. I did buy a microscope and was given a book of worm egg shapes but it is such a performance making slides (I think the dung is put in a sugar solution or something to make it suitable for slides [when the scientists have stopped cringing they can correct that if it is wrong] I have never found time or inclination to actually try it out.
d. Quite possibly a worm count would save you having to worm. Also if it tells you there are tapeworms or fluke then you would select particular wormers as these are not covered by the general wormers.
c. Frequent rotation of wormers might not help guard against resistant worms. Pasture management and timing worming correctly are more efficient. Also not over-use of wormers when unneccessary.
b. Only if necessary, not as a matter of course.
a. Depends on stocking levels, pasture management, how long animals have been on the holding and what was on the holding before they arrived. And what the individual animal looks like.
Hope this helps.
Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 6:35 pm
by Rob R
I have never wormed a Dexter in my life, yet the farmer who had the land before us left behind stacks of empty huskvax bottles from his continental cattle. We haven't had parasites involved in any veterinary cases and tend to use the most mortem exam from the abattoir to indicate how effective this is going. So far so good.
I'm currently looking at all the 'natural' wormers there are out there, and they are many & varied, much of them can be grown within the sward. When you look at the marketing of wormers they tend to suggest that you can't possibly do without them.
The more you worm, the less immunity your animals will develop, so if you bring in animals that have been heavily wormed in the past, they may be more susceptible coming into a herd that has some immunity to parasites. And if you are worming, it is better to give too much than not enough to avoid anthelmintic resistance in the parasites.
Wormers are amazingly powerful tools in animal health, but rather than being the first thing you reach for, I think they should be a last resort after your management has been changed to avoid encouraging parasites to take a hold. Parasites are opportunists- they'll attack the vulnerable & avoid the healthy.
Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 10:33 pm
by happy hollidays
I only worm when an animal starts coughing a lot, which isn't very often, I try not to give medicines unless needed.We are on limited space so I frequently pick up poo (lucky me). I only ever worm my dogs when we have a new puppy or they bottom shuffle !!!! I think it comes down to preference. This year I haven't even used any crovect on the sheep and seem to be doing ok up until now.
Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 3:52 am
by Inger
I tried not worming our weaner calves one year and they didn't Winter well. So I've gone back to drenching the calves at weaning. Thereafter, they are only drenched individually if they lose condition or start coughing too much. I drenched 2 cows last year and it seems I'll have to drench a couple of heifers this year. Other than that, the bulls have pour-on applied before and after working trips away from the farm.
Dexters are very healthy in general and providing you give them access to a wide variety of forage, they can cope with an average worm burden. Some types of worms don't harm cattle particularly, but there are other types, like lung worm, that need an eye kept on them.
Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 7:40 am
by Martin
This year I havn't wormed at all, I wormed just before the new year when the cattle where housed for winter and have not felt the need to do so since. When the foot and mouth fiasco is over they will be moved to a hay aftermath a short distance away and I will probably worm whilst moving them.
Martin.
Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 8:32 pm
by Farrant
We never worm our adults (we would if they lost weight or had diarrhoea). Our calves are all wormed at about 3 months old and we continue to worm them until they are about 18 months old. We are planning to start doing worm egg counts on the youngsters...when we finally get around to it! Ultimately everyone should be aiming to reduce their use of wormers to reduce the risk of resistance to them. Healthy mature animals should develop immunity to most parasites and therefore worming is unnecessary.
Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 8:34 pm
by Farrant
...if our adults ever started to look 'poor' then we would definitely worm them.
Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 11:28 pm
by Liz D
This is an interesting discussion. I have also been 'wondering' about whether we are sold a bill of goods with wormers! My sheep were not resistant and actually would die if not wormed about three times in pasture season here; 5 months in my part of Canada. My adult cows seem to be extremely resistant and are only wormed when they re coughing too much..not often or they are as said "looking poor"; also not often. I do worm the calves but usually only once and use a product on label for Tape worm. I find that the Dexters are quite good about their worm load and manage to keep things in balance, as adults, unless they are sick. L
Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 11:45 pm
by Inger
I don't worm our adult ewes either, unless they start looking a bit sad and then I only drench the individual sheep with the problem. If any of our lambs start needing more drench than the others in the mob, their names/numbers are noted and a place is reserved for them in the freezer, come Autumn. There's no point keeping genetically poorly lambs, if you have enough animals to choose from. Its better to breed from the sheep which can develop a good immunity to the worms on your farm.
I've found its more of a problem for new rams I buy in. They get a quarantine drench when they arrive, b ut because they're ususally lambs, some of them can take a number of months to build up an immunity and I've had to resort to a 3in1 drench for one ram. He was fine when he grew up though. Its just a worry while you're waiting for that to happen and you're hoping he's not going to be one of those rams that should be culled instead.
Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 7:38 am
by Broomcroft
We worm our Dexters once a year and am changing over now to egg counts and worming only when the vet says so, which may well be never.
We do regular egg counts for our sheep and they have a heavy worm infestation at the moment and I am worming today. Sheep really are useless creatures! Very bad design. Cattle are far more robust (and natural?). I think the only way to get proper sheep would be to leave them alone and let everything die that couldn't cope and just keep the tiny few that survived and breed from them. But my bank manager wouldn't be happy.
Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 9:43 am
by Sylvia
Oi, Clive, you are comparing commercial sheep with Dexter cattle who are possibly the least 'improved' of the cattle breeds. If you were comparing like for like ie Dexters v Shetland sheep you would probably find more of a similarity in hardiness and ease of care. Either that, or you are an out and out cow man (I've met a few of them 'Sheep nasty little blighters, hell would freeze over before I kept them') If that is the case get rid of them and concentrate on your first love, no not your wife, your Dexters.
Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 12:21 pm
by Broomcroft
I just knew Shetland would pop their heads up again! So, tell me Sylvia, is the lamb (mutton, whatever) as different and as good when compared to ordinary lamb as Dexter is to ordinary beef? Because, I'll admit, I am interested in looking for something really special and easier, sheep-wise.
Do they not need worming or dagging or shearing or anything? My ideal.
Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 1:52 pm
by Sylvia
Shetlands don't suit everyone, Clive. They are small sheep who produce lambs classed as 'light' which have plenty of flavour and tenderness but almost no fat (unlike the commercial breeds). They have to be run on for longer too. Either ready around December on grass or run on to the following year as hoggets. And smaller joints than bigger sheep. Their fleeces in many colours and very fine wool have more worth than plain white. We don't worm the adults very often, we only dag if someone needs it, of course they do need shearing (you can 'roo' them but only if you have endless time and patience). Usually easy lambing and good mothering. Short tails. Most have nice temperaments including rams - don't listen to anyone who says Shetland rams are nasty. All ours come when they are called. But do remember they are SHEEP and are never going to be quite as trouble free as cows. If you ever get down this way come and see ours and take a leg or two back to try.
Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 2:32 pm
by Broomcroft
Thanks Sylvia. I may take you up on that. I have family in Tenby and we'll be going there sometime to see them hopefully. The things you say don't put me off. I only want some for my direct, special market and home use. People who have Dexter Beef off me just come back and we get loads of excellent feedback as I am sure everyone does. But the lamb is just good lamb. I think I'll probably end up keeping the LLeyn's, as they are nice sheep, good meat, don't need crossing and, for sheep, they've got brains. Quite hardy as well. But I'll run them on for grass-fed mutton to get that extra-special flavour.