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Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:40 pm
by Kirk- Cascade Herd US
In another thread, there was some world-wide discussion concerning having smaller-framed Dexters (non-chondro) vs. larger-framed Dexters (non-chondro). Ignoring chondrodysplasia for purposes of this discussion, is it possible that Dexters are being called upon to fill a rather wide niche from the very small up to just below the height of the next larger widely recognized breed? Perhaps those who feel that most of the standard breeds are too large, but smaller Dexters are too small, select for larger Dexters?
For those of you who are rather focused on keeping the size of Dexters as small as possible, what are your goals and reasons for doing so? What's wrong with more moderate-framed Dexter herds, or even somewhat larger-framed Dexter herds? I've heard the comment "if folks want larger Dexters, why don't they just get another breed?" Aren't even the largest sized Dexters a little smaller than the next breed up in size? If larger Dexters don't fill this niche of say 44 inches to 48 inches (110-124 cm), what widely available multi-purpose breed does?
Since Dexters seem to fill a rather wide niche, perhaps there is room for small, moderate, and large framed (non-chondro) herds, and over time, strains of various sizes have been/will be formed. I actually saw an advertisement where someone was marketing "Larger Framed Dexters" as a selling point for their strain of animals and it was posted next to someone selling "Small, Non-Chondo Dexters".
I know that I favor moderate sized animals, not the small, or very large... Am I misguided for not wanting the smaller frames?, or do you think there is room for small framed herds (like Woodmagic), moderate framed herds, and larger framed herds within Dexterdom?
Kirk
Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 5:34 pm
by Saffy
I have been considering starting a dexter herd for a while now and have noted the different size preferences of breeders.
I can see that there is room for all sizes and the economic reasons for a larger cow but also feel that a dexter is a "small cow" which is what makes them different from other cows. Therefore it would be a shame if everyone bred toward the larger size and their smallness would eventually be lost.
Stephanie 
Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 6:39 pm
by marion
Hey Kirk! Maybe we should have Section A and B, etc. like they do for Welsh ponies :D
I want a good cow for general conformation including udder attachment and teats, dual-purpose, not one extreme or the other re milk and carcass. My stock produces cows (non-chondro) ranging 39-42 1/2 inches. I have one of a different line that is around 44 inches, a little taller than my ideal but shaping up to be a really nice cow. Bred to a 43 inch bull from a 40 inch dam. You can get a really substantial body in a smallish cow, so I wonder if the larger animals are different in that regard, or just have more leg . Are people breeding not only for shorter, but also trying for allover, daintier-framed? ..marion
Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 7:04 pm
by Broomcroft
As Kirk says, even large Dexters are small cows. I go towards the top end. Small ones, except cows just for breeding, are of no interest to me. Also, I admit, I don't like taking small animals to the abattoir.
Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:40 pm
by happy hollidays
We chose non short as our first Dexters, a happy medium. However the kids now want to find an orphan short calf having seen the lovely specimens in the pairs at the Kent show on Sunday. They were so small, almost toy like and it appealed to them immensly. I hope I can find them one, but it certainly does seem that for a beef animal it is at a disadvantage being that the charges are the same for a sussex for example. Each to their own as they say.
Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 7:55 pm
by sid
hello all again,
I've found a buyer for my Dexter meat and when it comes to it the larger the animal the better. TWO OF MY ANIMALS ARE GOING TO SLAUGHTER at the same time and are of equal age. With my limited knowledge of these animals i can see very easily which of these animals has more meat. The long legged beast is not only longer but much more in height, when the time comes i will post the difference in weight for all to see. I for one will only be buying in non-short animals, i'm not trying to p£$% anybody off but the quantity of meat is the price of the animal that you have spent bringing the animal on. For those people who keep them as animals purely for that and seek no more than the joy of that then i respect you for that, but as a product then i think the more meat per animal the better the chance that this breed can go places. I leave the floor open.
Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 8:06 pm
by sid
hello all again,
I've found a buyer for my Dexter meat and when it comes to it the larger the animal the better. TWO OF MY ANIMALS ARE GOING TO SLAUGHTER at the same time and are of equal age. With my limited knowledge of these animals i can see very easily which of these animals has more meat. The long legged beast is not only longer but much more in height, when the time comes i will post the difference in weight for all to see. I for one will only be buying in non-short animals, i'm not trying to p£$% anybody off but the quantity of meat is the price of the animal that you have spent bringing the animal on. For those people who keep them as animals purely for that and seek no more than the joy of that then i respect you for that, but as a product then i think the more meat per animal the better the chance that this breed can go places. I leave the floor open.
Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 7:45 am
by Broomcroft
A thing to bear in mind with Dexters for beef is that to produce a nicely finished animal, if you are doing it on grass, is that the smaller/shorter ones generally are far easier. You can get non-shorts that are very hard to finish unless your grazing has top-notch feed value in my experience. So for people who are on poor grazing, SSSI or whatever, and want to do Dexters, especially small-holders with poor or even "ordinary" grazing, the smaller ones have advantages. Not for me though.
I think the wide variety is a good thing myself.
Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 1:30 pm
by Inger
I'm quite happy with the idea that different people want different sized animals. A good variety in the heights improves the gene pool. I'm all for it. There's a Dexter available to suit everybody's needs, which hopefully means more people will keep Dexters.
Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 8:02 am
by Woodmagic
I have two concerns on the question of size. If the trend to breed bigger gains momentum, largely for commercial reasons, it may be impossible to recover the small size. In selecting the larger animal it is almost certain the selection is also favouring the other breed that gave us the larger size in the first place. What genes are we losing?
We probably gained the bulldog problem in an endeavour to improve the carcase quality. You only need to compare the hardiness and longevity of the Dexter with the Holstein to see where man’s improvement can lead. The Dexter like most mountain breeds is a small animal – four feet to serve smaller needs.
Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 8:17 am
by Martin
I have in a previous topic on the same thread been castigated for my views on this subject and cross breeding. My cows are all non short as shorts do not 'float my boat' and mine are just within the limit of the breed standard. They are Dexters, the same as very small shorts are Dexters, its just a pity that some amongst us would rather the type of cow I prefer was not around. Some seem to forget that if it was not for the non short the Dexter would have died out long ago.
I'm for live and let live, I have no desire to show my animals but respect those that do, I admire those that have done so much to keep the breed alive when they where a very rare breed, but because of a few we can still enjoy these wonderful cows.
Yes, Dexters of all shapes and sizes fill a wide range of needs and the next breed up is a lot larger than my 'large' cows. We all have our personal preference on size, but the thing that binds most of us together is the fact that the Dexter is our breed of choice.
Martin. Medway Valley Dexters.
Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 1:01 pm
by Woodmagic
Breeding for size will not eliminate achondrodysplasia. The South Africans went down that road and produced elephants still breeding bulldogs. Equally the long leg does not necessarily imply the dairy type, which I accept Clive is not a good beef animal. What I wish to promote is a smaller animal, but not a toy, which I believe inherits the genes possessed by the smaller type, which could be found in Ireland centuries ago, an animal free from the bulldog. Nothing should prevent folks breeding the animal, which suits their particular programme, but if we are talking about what the Breed Society should promote, I would be sad if the true Dexter should be lost in a muddle of variety of needs that has nothing to do with a breed.
Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 1:34 pm
by Broomcroft
Hi Beryl
I had an email exchange with someone who said that they prefer smaller ones and who thought I preferred bigger types, because that is what I said actually, but at the end of the day when we exchanged figures, our animals were about the same! It was just our interpretation of what was big and small that differed. What Kirk said, "they are all small cattle", is true, just different degrees of small.
So, in a perfect world, where you could have exactly what you wanted without having to take anyone else into account, what upper and lower limits on size (height or weight?) would you have for "true Dexters" as a breed standard?
Maybe there is a need for another classification based upon a tighter standard within the overall standard. i.e. "Original Population Dexters" (like Angus) or something like that, something to differentiate. There are clearly breeders dedicated to that route, I am glad to say, others who have Dexters for the unique beef, and those who just want pets / home cows.
Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 9:06 am
by Inger
We in NZ also have another variation and that is that some lines of Dexters are more of a dairy type, whereas others are steering towards a beef type. This can make it difficult when trying to choose a bull. Let alone trying to choose a bull in the height range you want. Then again, its the variation of genetics that allows the Dexter to be adapted to any terain or farming type. I guess we need all variations. Including horned or polled. :;):
Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 4:12 pm
by Woodmagic
When I started my Dexter career I was frequently told by outsiders that the Dexter could not be considered a breed because it couldn’t breed true. It is now acknowledged that with the elimination of the achodroplasia it will reproduce itself. However, it appears this apparent previous inability has left many breeders without comprehension of what constitutes a breed.
The Dexter is dual purpose, which means walking a tightrope, and maintaining a careful balance between the two. The early animals that I came across, that were true breeding were around 40” in height and I have tried to keep to this. Greater concern for welfare today means most farming conditions require the horns to be taken off, and I think this justifies the radical step of removing the horns, whether through breeding or dehorning. My aim has always been, not to manufacture my ideal, but to work towards multiplying what I believed we had inherited from Ireland, simply eliminating the bulldog which man had artificially introduced. This gives a small dual-purpose animal supplying the cottager with high quality meat and milk at minimum cost and labour. If we are going to promote a breed it has to conform to a standard, otherwise we don’t have a breed.