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Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 7:51 am
by Martin
This week I had the vet in to castrate my three bull calves that where born earlier this year. A brutal and eye watering procedure.
I normally use a rubber ring in the first few days, but this year decided to run them entire for a while to see if there was a difference in growth rate. Difficult to assess with only a small sample and an experience I will not be repeating. The rubber ring is so clean and simple (also no vet bill) compared to the procedure carried out this week, luckily not many flies about because of our terrible weather.
As all of this years crop are going for beef (including heifers) I have decided not to de-horn (two red calves look like little devils) and wait to see if management is more difficult with horns still on. As my beef animals do not normally come inside this should not become a problem, if neccessary my vet can remove them at a later date.
How do others manage these procedures? Cost is not a issue for me, but fitting in vet visits alongside a full time job is my main problem, getting animals that are on good pasture and can see no good reason for going into a pen is another thing altogether.
Martin. Medway Valley Dexters.
Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 8:51 am
by Sylvia
Although I ring lambs myself I always have a vet to castrate and dehorn calves because we do neither of these procedures when the calves are very young. Reason: in very young calves it is not always possible to identify horned and polled so I wait until horns are showing also my vet (who is a very good, experienced cattle vet) prefers to castrate when they are slightly older when he either cuts or uses a bur-thingamy (can't think what it is called) to pinch depending on what he thinks is best. Using this method allows us to choose to do groups of calves together at times when flies are not a problem. Local anaesthetic is used, calves are injected and time left for the anaesthetic to take effect before proceeding. Yes, if they are cut it can be a bit bloody with bits and pieces which have to be collected if the dogs are not to have a field day! Ask the vet to take this away with him, we often do. Some of the babes do look a bit quiet for a while (but so do ringed lambs). We have all horns taken off, I don't like mixing horned and polled/disbudded and even 24/30 months with horns is too much for me. Having groups done together brings the price down because it is the travelling which adds a tidy sum to the bill.
Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 11:05 am
by Broomcroft
We've only ever mixed horned and non-horned once and never again. The horned bullied the non-horned and I saw one that had a non-horned pinned again a wall with the horn virtually penetrating the other cow.
We did keep most males entire, then got the vet in later, but have gone back to ringing them young unless they look exceptional AND are out of a good line. I'm now taking a third route, which is keeping the few left entire as bulls and sending them to the abattoir complete with their tackle. Looks like we'll get more beef from those.
Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 3:02 pm
by Rob R
We ring & paste calves at a young age (the same time as tagging, to reduce the stress effect). I've thought about cutting the bull calves, but although I can, it is not legal so we are sticking with the rings. Sometimes I think about wether we should gas dehorn but with most calves born out at grass, it is not often a practical method to use out in the field.
For my first six years of keeping Dexters I never castrated, and I was told that I could ruin the breeds reputation as a beef animal by keeping them entire. It was for the practical reasons of grazing finishing & breeding stock together that we changed, and we did get some comments about the beef- that bull beef was marginally better than steer beef. The idea of castrating at 4+ months is that the calf already has the testosterone levels to provide for the first year of growth. Not running the two together it would be hard to make a comparison as far as growth goes.
Last year we had two heifers from two bought in heifers that came with horns, so we decided to leave them with their horns. There has been no noticeable problems with keeping the horned & non-horned together, and handling them was surprisingly easy, but I suppose that depends on the temperament of the animals (we cull for temperament). One thing about keeping the horned cattle though- they do need more feeding space when housed, so you can pack them in tighter inside without.
We now have Highland cattle, complete with horns, grazing with the Dexters but the dehorned Dexters give a lot more grief than they get!
Clive: have you checked with your abattoir about processing bulls? Ours always did it but sometimes they weren't able to manage them some weeks because of the practicalities of keeping bulls seperate in the lairage.
Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 4:43 pm
by Broomcroft
Yes Rob, they said no probs. The abattoir we used to use said they needed to book bulls in especially, but our new one just takes them unless they're aggressive, which is not the case.
I am fascinated by the bull-beef being possibly better and can't wait to get mine in the freezer.
As a note, I had 6 bulls, all by the same bull (not mine) and ran them to about a year old and then castrated 5 out of 6. They were all quite similar. It has to be said that the one I kept entire was slightly heavier than the rest but only just slightly. He is now way ahead of his half-brothers and is quite a beefy, fit lad. In fact I'd probably keep him but I just don't trust him.
Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 5:58 am
by Inger
You could use him for one year Broomcroft, then eat him. That way, if he had any good genetics, they aren't wasted. If he didn't, you can still make money on the beef from his calves. :laugh:
I ring our bullcalves when they are around 3 months, after everything has dropped into place properly and before they start getting ideas. I have dehorned using paste, in the past, for one or two animals, but it has to be done in the first week and if the weather is wet, it can't be done. We normally only have 2 or 3 calves with horns anyway, so I get the vet to take them off at 5 or 6 months of age, while I have her at the farm doing pregnancy scans on our cows. That way, its not so expensive with the travelling costs.
Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 6:03 pm
by Duncan MacIntyre
The UK has a stricter welfare code than some countries, rubber rings for castration may only be used up to one week old. An anaesthetic (can be local) is needed to castrate over two months, and it must be a vet to do it after two months to be legal. I prefer the knife myself, it should not be brutal or bloody, much less pain than rings put on too late or burdizzo. I do sometimes use a burdizzo if it is being done too late to avoid risk of flies, but I don't like it either from the welfare point of view (looks ok the day you do it, but can be very swollen and painful long after) or from the lumps left even though the op has been successful - can caus bother if you are selling them. I castrate my own with local anaesthetic and a knife at any age up to 14 months depending on when I decide they will not be bulls.
Running Dexters for bull beef is I think just as difficult as any other breed from the safety point of view and I am not sure how you would finish them at grass unless you had a long distance between them and other cattle. Feeding and bedding bull beef is a dangerous hobby and really needs properly designed pens if you keep them in any number. I have found it difficult to get enough fat cover on entire bulls, unless using concentrate feeding.
Dehorning also requires an anaesthetic to make it legal, though it can be done by suitably trained lay people. Too many are done with no attempt at local anaesthetic, and I have seen some disgraceful efforts eg using rubber rings on the horn base which just creates a chronic unhealed area of constant pain. I usually do my Dexters in the Autumn, using local anaesthetic and plenty of it, and a saw to take off an area of skin with hair all round the base of the horn. I honestly think dexter horns are more difficult than average to dehorn nicely.
Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 9:39 pm
by Rob R
Duncan, I was reading somewhere, in an American book I think but I can't find the reference now, anyway they cut the bottom off the sac completely off &, if I remember correctly, let the stone gradually fall out. I may have got this wrong & they may have cut the cord, I'm not 100% sure on that one. But anyway, what are your thoughts on either of these methods, the idea being that the wound drains easier than a slit.
Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 10:40 pm
by Duncan MacIntyre
Cutting the end of the scrotum rather than two individual cuts is a good way to ensure drainage, but I cannot see how the testicles could be left to fall out gradually, maybe there has been some sort of attempt to describe slow pulling to ensure no bleeding rather than a sharp pull which will make a break in the cord very near the testicle and there is liable to be a lot of bleeding.
I make an incision for each testicle in turn, going right to the end of the scrotum, separate the cord, then pull slowly and in a controlled way so that a long bit of cord comes out before it breaks. Nothing should be touched with the hand which will not be removed, so there is as little chance of infection as possible. The whole operation needs great cleanliness, washing the scrotum with disinfectant after injecting anaesthetic, and again after removal of the testicles.
Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 11:22 pm
by Penny
Duncan,
how I wish you were my vet! My boys are always cut, as I cannot risk having a rig on the place, it is a nightmare. However, everyso often I do get problems with infection, as my vet is not as careful as you are.
RE bull beef, as you say, getting a decent cover on a bull using just grass/hay can be a problem. This has been illustrated very clearly recently by a friend who sent in some stock, 2 steers and a bull, similar ages, all fed the same with good grass/clover. The bull weighed the most by far deadweight, and yes, he will have the most beef, but the marbling and fat coverage was almost non-existent when I looked at the carcass. I cannot believe that it will eat better then the well covered steers,due to the lack of marbling. My customers would not contemplate purchasing something so lean. So it just depends what your customer preference is.
Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 2:21 am
by Inger
That is interesting to know Penny. Especially as it is the marbling which makes the Dexter meat more tasty and tender, in the first place.
Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 6:57 am
by Broomcroft
When I had 6 of the young bulls together they would constantly fight and very nearly had me once as well. I just jumped over the gate in the pen on hearing the row, and 3 off them slammed into the gate exactly where I was stood. It would have been very serious.
Since then the bull has been with a few quiet steers, youngsters and 3 pregnant cows including my boss cow. He's been calm and quiet. The bull looks well fattened now from the outside. But we'll soon find out......poor chap.
Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 11:20 am
by Sylvia
I must defend my vet's use of a burdizzo which is only used if he feels the calf is not well enough developed for cutting. His implement is jealously guarded, never loaned to other vets at the practice and kept in perfect condition. As I have said, by using both options we can group the calves at non-fly times of the year and we have not had any problems so far with either method.
I can however understand how problems might occur with a burdizzo because it could certainly look a better option to inexperienced owners who might be tempted to try it themselves whereas I hope they wouldn't consider taking a knife to their poor little calf.
Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 3:28 pm
by Woodmagic
One needs to be watchful when importing ideas, as Duncan says it is illegal to use rubber rings on a calf older than a week in this country, yet I see on one American site they advocate the method for adult bulls. My vet used the burdizzo on one bunch of steers once, I have never used that again, some of them were in considerable discomfort for weeks afterwards. I always advise beginners to use the rubber ring which I have never seen have any adverse effect whatsoever. In my own case I have the vet in to cut when I am quite sure I have retained any bulls I am going to want. I keep them quietly isolated for a couple of days in a well strawed pen before they rejoin their fellows, and they recover very well. It is not ideal, but I feel the best option, when you need to have time to judge whether you have a potential bull amongst them. My vet agrees with Duncan, Dexters have stronger horns than most breeds, and I have had failures even using a vet.
Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 4:14 pm
by Rob R
I've always find Dexters to be very good at holding themselves 'up' when you're trying to get a ring on :D Missed one once & we're now extra wary to double check them afterwards & cut the ring off to start again if necessary.