Dexter Cattle For Sale Discussion Board

Posted: **Mon Jul 02, 2007 12:25 pm**

I am a little suprised at the completelty different viewpoints of the dexter breeders I have spoken to since I decided at last
to look for some to buy.

One would of course expect different opinions but dexter breeders have VERY different opinions. It is all interesting and
I particularly appreciate advice on what dexters are like and how they differ from cows I have kept in the past.

Breeder No1 says, "I use AI, I don't nominate its too expensive, you must always put a short cow to a long bull and vice versa and then you won't have any bulldogs. It is as simple as that".

Breeder No2 says, "I don't use AI, there isn't enough choice, too many dexters are bred by the same bulls. I breed for as large and chunky a dexter as I can get, that way you have a more viable beef animal. Mine are all long leg, you won't get a dwarf from mine"

Breeder No3 says, "Dexters are meant to be small, therefore I breed for the smallest dexters that don't have dwarf gene that I can possibly get that is why mine are smaller than most but are still long leg."

Breeder No4 says, " Long legs are pointless, dexters are meant to be short legged, it is the dwarf gene that make dexters what they are. I breed entirely to get short legs, long legs never win at shows because they are the wrong type".

I am terribly greatful to dexter people for letting me look at their cows and generously giving me their opinions it is all useful but not making my choice of dexter type an easy one.

The dwarf gene has been covered rather well in Beryl's book and on this site and opinion on it seems to be a matter of personal choice.

My intention is to start my herd with as good quality genes as I can afford, mostly a pride thing it may sound a little bit "hippy" but the right stock will make me happy! Apart from that its main use will be to give us nice beef that will fit in the freezer.

I hope this post won't put people off letting me have a look at their herds and giving thier opinions and advice because that is what I would like lots of opinions and lots of advice it will help me make a difficult decision and hopefully make a few friends as well. Also other peoples farms, with different terrain, different mix of stock, different husbandry and different dexters is far more interesting than I expected and very enjoyable.

The one thing that was the same for each breeder was their genuine love of their cows which is lovely, I have not always seen it with commercial milking herds.

Can anyone tell me a bit more about AI bulls available, are there really only 6? When I bred friesians I would be deluged every Spring and Autumn with "Bull Books" there were literally thousands to choose from. Having never kept bulls the idea is a bit daunting but I won't discount it altogether.

Stephanie - confused but happy :D

Posted: **Mon Jul 02, 2007 3:04 pm**

Hi Stephanie

Can I add a 5th choice...medium leg...that is sort of what I go for. Technically, they are non-short. I only started 4 years ago, so I've got a mixed bunch, and now have 100 head for beef only, I don't sell stock. I can confirm that the advice when you start is very varied, but I feel that the best can probably be found on this discussion board...but not from me. I'm too new.

I have also heard from a number of people that dexters for beef must be of a certain size and type, and the people saying it aren't wrong, but I honestly believe it's got a lot to do with simple logic. If you've got ample good grass of the right type, and obviously good stock, you can finish any size of animal (or at least I have), including small Angus if you wanted to. The smaller chunky dexters, will finish on anything on my farm. They've only got to see grass to put on beef! So I think it depends very much on your individual operation/land. You need to chose stock for your circumstances.

If you're anywhere near Shropshire come and have a look at my stock (not for sale as I said) because it is varied, so I've learned a lot of the basics in a short period of time.

The other key issue is your market. If you are selling to butchers, then the butchers I know of, small short-legs will be bad news. That may be different elsewhere but it is what I and others say around my district. If your market is not butchers, and you are selling direct/friends and family etc., then that won't be a constraint and you have more control. Some finishers, if you want to sell to finishers, will also not deal in very small animals. I'm not saying what a dexter should or shouldn't be, I'm just saying how it is around me.

I get mainly fair sized ones and some small. So small go in the freezer, bigger ones to keep the butchers happy.

The big thing that I learned almost by accidient on this discussion board just the other day, is that if the bull carries the dwarf gene, you will get far more varied sized calves, which for me, is precisiely what I do not want. I assume the info is correct and I have not misunderstood it?

You could hire a bull.

And have you tasted the beef?

Posted: **Mon Jul 02, 2007 5:30 pm**

There are only two choices:

1. A mixed herd of inconsistent size (chondro & non-chondro).
2. A consistent herd of normal size (non-chondro).

With the chondrodysplasia gene, only 50% of your calves will be born with chondrodysplasia (short legs), the rest will be normal (long-legged). Chondrodysplasic animals cannot breed true because chondrodysplasia is lethal in its homozygous form. So in your example, breeder number 4 is wrong and would need to change his/her statement to: "At least 50% of Dexters have always been long legged (non-chondro). Even those of us who favor short legged (chondro) animals, have to live with the fact that half of our calves will be born normal (non-chondro) and we will always have inconsistent calf crops. "

Concerning bulls, even if you use AI, you will likely be faced with keeping a bull someday. Let's say you use AI and you produce a knockout bull calf. He's stunning. You will be tempted to hang onto him for a while to see how he grows. You will say to yourself, "It would be such a shame to castrate this amazing little bull." You will find out that if he is well behaved (many/most are), that the only real management issue is keeping him separate from females (like young heifers) that you don't want him to breed. Even if you don't use this little bull yourself (I don't know why you wouldn't), you will be tempted to hang onto him until you can find a buyer and even if you don't find a buyer, you can always turn him into beef later.

Concerning the daunting feeling of keeping a bull, I remember when we were just building our herd and considering purchasing a bull. We had very mixed feelings about keeping such a beast. We purchased one from quite a distance away just based on some photos and the strength of the pedigree and the breeder's track record. When the trailer arrived, we were expecting this bullish bull to bounce out of the doors snorting at us. Instead, there was this mild-mannered little guy (he was only 8 months old). We thought "That's our snorting and pawing bull that's got to breed our girls in a couple of months?" (you should have seen the look of both relief and disappointment on our faces). However, at 10-11 months, he bred our 8 girls in short order, right on schedule. It was so very easy!

He grew with us and we grew with him. Even though he's now a very bullish bull, we know what makes him tick and can read him very well. He loves to stand there and get a shoulder massage, but we know to be careful with all bulls no matter how friendly. The nice thing about keeping a bull with the herd most of the time, is that you have a built in pregnancy tester & heat detector so you know who is bred and who isn't and know if someone slips a pregnancy.

Going with a very young bull, worked out well for us. We have a second bull now (yep, one that was just too good to castrate/slaughter) and another stunning and promising bull calf this year from our best dam that we will likely keep as a trial breeder.

If you decide to give keeping a bull a try, get a calm and well-behaved weanling with an excellent pedigree from an excellent dam from an excellent herd. With proper nutrition, he should be ready to breed at about 10-11 months. If you change your mind after a breeding season or two, he will make fine beef.

Hope this helps,

Kirk

Posted: **Mon Jul 02, 2007 6:17 pm**

When I started there seemed (from my experience at least) that the short legged animals were favoured in the show ring & longs were an unfortunate 'biproduct' for beef. I think general opinion has come a long way since towards accepting both types with equal merit. I prefer to keep a mixed herd with both leg types & all three colours, I've even got a polled heifer in the herd now. If you want to keep all shorts it means using a long bull & selling off/butchering the longs. We now have two bulls, a long & a short, one red, one black (who is dun-sired). Ideally I'd like short heifers & long bulls all the time, to have a lower maintenance cow (not that there is really that much in it) and larger carcass steers, but it's nice to have the variety- the good thing I find about having a mixture is that the shorts finishing earlier gives about nine months of beef 'season' from a late Spring/early summer calving herd. As Clive says, it really depends on YOUR farm & market etc, so you should never take one breeders opinions as being the best ones to adopt.

As far as our experiences with AI goes, it worked well if you have a good technician or a DIY skills, but we did find it a real pain if the cows were away on rented grazing- if we'd had our own farm it would have been easier, but it seemed like a lot of hassle sometimes to get them in calf. We still have two animals in the herd that were bred by AI, a heifer by Harron Rocket & a bull by Cornahir Outlaw, both have been good animals, but keeping up with AI wasn't worthwhile for us because of the impracticalities of it.

We used our home bred bull from '99 but his mother & grandmother were in the herd (and were both short) so we still needed to make other arrangements, which culminated in buying Graystone Ilex in 2002. We buy/keep a bull firstly on temperament, and then breeding & conformation- I wouldn't keep an aggressive bull no matter how good he looked (mainly for handling & passing it on to his sons & daughters, but also because we have a public footpath in every field on the farm & hire him out).

On my travels I have seen some shocking bulls though which should never have got past 30 months. I don't like to see an extreme of either long or short, but like the variety, I've seen some longs that were all bone and some shorts that were well beefy on short legs, so I wouldn't generalise & would say there are good & bad examples of both out there. I don't show anymore but I'd like to keep the core of the herd up to a pedigree standard where I'd be happy to select an animal for the showring.

Posted: **Mon Jul 02, 2007 7:32 pm**

Lots of good sound advice here and on other posts which you have been following, good to hear that you are going ahead. The main thing is to have animals that you can enjoy keeping, with the emphaisis on whatever aspect interests you most at the moment. Once you have got started do not be surprised if your emphasis changes - one thing that is almost gauranteed is that you will enjoy being a Dexter keeper. Try to find other Dexter owners near at hand to share experiences and worries with.

Whatever purpose you want for you Dexters, get them used to being handled and behaving in human company - that basically means they should not have any reason to fear you. If they are comfortable with your presence be it in a field or in a shed they will be calm and easy to handle. Try to buy stock which has been handled, even if you yourself will not want to show them, it helps if they can be handled safely. Once you have your own young ones coming on handle any you will wish to keep long term as much as you can while they are young. I like to keep any potential breeding ones in the shed for the first winter and spend some time with them in the pens, putting on halters now and then and taking them for a few walks before they get too big. They never forget if you do even a little of that during their first winter. Another point about behaviour is that if your fences are good and they never have the chance to escape then things go better. If your fences are poor and they can learn how to escape they never forget. Talking of never forgetting I think all cattle are creatures of habit, but Dexters even more so. They like routine, feeding at same time, same sequence of events at milking or other handling etc.

Duncan

Posted: **Tue Jul 03, 2007 10:14 am**

Thankyou all so much everyone for the replies, very helpful. Dexter people are all so friendly - a bit like dexters?!

Clive thank you so much for your kind invitation, we would be delighted for the chance to see your cattle and no we still haven't tasted the beef but intend to first chance we get. Perhaps we can buy some off you when we are there!

Thank you Kirk and Rob for explaining the reasons for wanting to keep a bull, I see that although I am used to using AI there are some very strong reasons for keeping a bull, also an almost overwhelming temptation to keep one of my own at some point and maybe not as scary as I had expected if I choose with great care!!!

Duncan thanks for the advice on handling, I didn't often lead my young friesians, there were too many anyway, I will remember to handle the youngstock when they are housed in the winter.

All advice will be greatfully accepted, so if anyone can think of something I need to know please add your post.

I have had no replies so far about Dexter Bulls through AI. Does this mean that there are very few to choose from? I had hoped to be able to sit down with the info on the progeny of lots of bulls and buy a few straws from the bull of my choice at least for the first year or two. Can anybody enlighten me?

Stephanie :D

Posted: **Tue Jul 03, 2007 12:52 pm**

When I came into Dexters the first question at calving was not ‘is it a bull or a heifer?’, but ‘is it a short or long?’ - putting another imponderable into the equation. At that time only short leg bulls were available on A.I., all supplied by the Society. Unfortunately the number of customers in a rare breed makes A.I for the private individual; unprofitable, today despite the increase in numbers I suspect the same is still true, unless sales can be made abroad. If you were in Australia you would have a choice of over fifty. Distances there mean A.I. is the only practical solution
If you make enquiries you will find additions to the six, unfortunately the policy was recently changed, I feel all A.I. bulls should have an entry in the Bulletin to enable newcomers to see what choice there is, but Council in its wisdom decided to insist on charging for it.
Until the government began putting obstacles in the way, it was usually fairly simple either to hire, or take the cow to a bull. Today T.B. testing and escalating transport costs makes this prohibitive in many instances.
It is certainly true that most bulls are quiet and easy to handle, nevertheless you are dealing with a 8 cwt animal much faster on his feet than you are, if he does decide to challenge your chances are not good. Having said that, I have kept a bull for many years with few problems. It is certainly much simpler to ensure a good calving interval, and personally I want to know much more on the background breeding than a lot of bull owners or their pedigrees could supply.
Despite a Dexter’s friendliness, which you have already discovered, remember they behave differently to strangers of their own kind, and allow for any two having a good old ding-dong to decide who is boss, not safe for any small calf that may be in two. This can happen even within a herd where they have been separated for an interval.
Keep looking and talking, yes, Dexter breeders are very prepared to help a newcomer, and the best of luck when you come to a conclusion.

Posted: **Tue Jul 03, 2007 12:56 pm**

'small calf in TOW' - have just read it through again:O :O

Posted: **Tue Jul 03, 2007 4:02 pm**

Ooooooh I am going to put my neck on the line! In your first entry Saffy Breeder no 4 is, in my view, totally wrong!
Breeder no 1 is correct but why use a so-called 'short legged' these days there are quality technically non-short which breed fairly true.... in the 'short/non-short breedings, the resulting non-shorts can be quite tall whereas in a non-short/non-short coupling the resulting offspring will usually be like one or both of the parents. Like others, I breed only non-short using both AI and home bred bulls.

The genetics project has shown that the breed has a wide gene pool so I suspect that those who are 'line breeding' etc. are not so likely to have problems as other breeds with fewer variations.
Hope I haven't annoyed too many!
Jo

Posted: **Tue Jul 03, 2007 7:45 pm**

My brain siezes up when I get to short non-shorts :;):. I keep on saying it and nothing happens. I wish we could have an alternative description. If we keep using these terms, Donald Rumsfeld may start breeding Dexters!

Posted: **Tue Jul 03, 2007 9:11 pm**

Broomcroft wrote:My brain siezes up when I get to short non-shorts :;):. I keep on saying it and nothing happens. I wish we could have an alternative description.

Ok, how about this proposal for clear language:

Small = the animal has small genetics and most non-chondrodysplasic close relatives including siblings are small.

Medium = the animal has medium genetics and most non-chondro close relatives including siblings are medium.

Large = the animal has larger genetics (for a Dexter) and most non-chondro close relatives including siblings are large.

Coupled with:

Chondro = Affected by Chondrodysplasia, Short Legged, Dwarf

Non-Chondro = No Chondrodysplasia genes, Long-Legged, Non-Dwarf, normal

Ok, I'll give this proposed terminology a try with a few experimental sentences:

My herd is generally medium framed, non-chondro. I understand that the Woodmagic animals are mostly small framed non-chondros. I've heard that some breeders like large framed chondro Dexters because the large underlying genetics add beef, while the chondrodysplasia gene shortens the stature in half of the calves, although the other 50% of calves will likely be large non-chondros and could be quite tall.

hmmm, what do you think?

Kirk

Posted: **Tue Jul 03, 2007 10:47 pm**

The late great Morna Arkle in her article "How to breed a Bulldog" used the terminology long looking long, long looking short, short looking long and short looking short.

I think we need to find some new terminology to distinguish what previously we would have referred to as long and short. I have never been very comfortable with the term "medium". To my mind we really should make the important distinction between Chondrodysplasia carriers and non carriers, but we need to avoid offending short leg fans or confusing newcomers or outsiders who do not know about the bulldog gene.

No other breed of livestock with the exception of the Scots Dumpy perhaps has the same worry. I have never bred Scots Dumpys cannot remember quite how their genetics works but it like short to short Dexters involves an awful lot of wastage.

I have thought about terming non carriers "true breeding Dexters" or "Standard bred Dexters"

Unlike Kirk I am not trying to distinguish different sizes of animal - I think we should be aiming at as uniform a size as possible, regardless of carrying the chondrodysplasia gene or not. This philosophy would strongly favour keeping the size down, females preferably no higher than 39 or maybe 40inches, bulls I would be happier if they were 46 max instead of 48inches. I am also concerned about the weight - historically a Dexter bull in working condition was expected to be up to 900 pounds - say 450kg. Some now are topping 650 to 700Kilos. For the selling of beef we need to concentrate on the real advantages of Dexter beef, the flavour, the saturated/non saturated fat proportions, the marbling, and yes the small size. The main distinguishing feature of the Dexter is the size. We should never let them get too large. If you want large, there are plenty of other breeds to choose, or cross your Dexter cows if you like. But the small compact efficient Dexter should not be lost.

Duncan, ranting again.

Posted: **Wed Jul 04, 2007 2:17 am**

Move over please, Jo Kemp, so my neck can fit on the line. Duncan, how can there be a uniformity including carriers?

If I had a person come to me prior to purchasing, my advice would be to buy one or a few of the best, & a young weaner bull from good family lines, unless you do your own AI. The best are not necessarily the most expensive. The price is merely the owners perception of value.
The bull will work very early, before 10 months, and can be sold or eaten after two seasons of work, to be replaced by another youngster from a good family. He is only a repository of genetic information, and any sentiment attached to him can easily be adjusted accordingly, especially as he gets a bit older, and starts thinking his herd isn't big enough to keep him your side of the fence.
Saffy, you will know what makes a good cow, having been around a mob of milkers. Some will have been good cows, and some would have been not so good, even if they were good milkers. All you need to do before buying is to have a look around, and get your eye in, to see what makes a good cow into a good Dexter. It must look like a Dexter, & I would not wany to buy something that I have to fix.
Now that we have the science, there are only two kinds of Dexters, carriers and non-carriers. Within those parameters, they come in a wide range of shapes and sizes, the result of years of the dwarf masking the true size.
When we bought our first two cows, I couldn't tell the difference. Looking back at photos, I can't see the similarity.

Posted: **Wed Jul 04, 2007 2:59 am**

Duncan MacIntyre wrote:- I think we should be aiming at as uniform a size as possible, regardless of carrying the chondrodysplasia gene or not.

Isn't aiming for uniform size regardless of the chondrodysplasia gene impossible? Isn't the chondrodysplasia gene actually a major contributor to inconsistent, non-uniform size?

Let's say two breeders aimed for 40 inch females:

Breeder-1 utilizes the chondrodysplasia gene. All of his cows are chondros and his bull is a non-chondro. He sells all of his non-chondro calves. His retained chondro cows are all very close to 40 inches at age 30 months. He's very proud of his 40 inch genetics.

Breeder-2 is uncomfortable with chondrodysplasia but wishes to have 40 inch cows too. He buys a young (non-chondro) starter herd of weanlings from Breeder-1 because breeder-1 advertises a 40 inch cow herd. Breeder-2 is surprised to find that his female calves, when grown, average 45 inches. What is going on?

The answer to this is that in this example, breeder-1 doesn't actually have 40 inch cow genetics, he really has 45 inch cow genetics hidden in his herd by the effect of chondrodysplasia. The proof of this is the average height of his non-chondro calves.

I believe this example shows that one source of the larger genetics is chondro breeders who mistakenly believe they have smaller genetics.

Kirk

PS. Hope this discussion is helping the original poster and I hope even more I'm not annoying anyone. I'm just trying to be scientific about it all.

Posted: **Wed Jul 04, 2007 7:50 am**

Oh Duncan, my bull is 46 inches At 5 years of age) and is over 600kgs (measured by tape) he has always been a chunky lad, does not lose weight overwintering in the field with only grass & haylage as diet.... he also works pretty well too. He's just plain solid and I'm thrilled with him and his progeny - he is bringing down the size of my herd but without loss of carcass weight.

I would simply say Chondro carrier or non carrier. This would have to be explained to new breeders and could upset those who use chondro animals at the moment but in time, as the chondro animals decrease in number, the breed would level out.

Dexter Cattle For Sale Discussion Board

Starting out - Diverse views!!!