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Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 9:36 pm
by rodmet
Did anyone see this week's Farmers Guardian and all the Dexters for sale? Mark's site is also full of stock. Is this just a seasonal thing? a blip? or the start of a significant slide in the national herd numbers? In my view, with so many and ever higher hurdles and a diminishing number of pluses a large reduction is on the cards. So my questions are - do others anticipate a big fall in numbers? if so, should we care? and if we do care what should we try and do about it?
Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 12:12 am
by Rob R
I think this has come up before, with the concensus that lots of sales means a healthy breeding population... Now if they subsequently don't sell then either nonone wants them, or the quality retained has been too low to satisfy a growing market which has come to saturation & only the best find new homes. The market for Dexter beef is by no means saturated though, so I doubt there is a big problem there.
Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 7:26 am
by Broomcroft
One of the adverts is mine and I don't have much if anything for sale at the moment. My advert is just a regular fortnightly advert for the herd like the AA ad's that you see. I am going to change the wording so that it is just a herd ad rather than saying "for sale". It was also intended to help people over this way with sale of stock but no-one was interested. I put it in regularly simply so people get used to seeing it and remember it so that when I do have stock for sale they know where to look.
The only enquiries I've had lately is from Ireland and elsewhere looking for cheap stock, which is something I never do, I'd much rather slaughter an animal than sell cheap to someone I do not know. I am aware of people who are short of stock and some who are overstocked. Why I do not know, it depends upon their market I suppose. Seems like they should just be supplying each other. Perhaps some sort of additional help in some way with the movement of steers would benefit the Dexter market because it seems it isn't working at the moment. I'd suggest sales apart from distance problems.
Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 8:31 am
by Sylvia
Please see my 'Cause for Concern' string.
Also please see my request for someone who can work the Poll thingy attached to this board to do a poll asking breeders to identify if they'd prefer to be primarily breeders or primarily finishers or if they are content as they are.
Only if Dexter beef can be established as what it is, a high class, valuable product with a ready market will Dexters be worth keeping. If their beef goes into the mainstream market I see no way that, with their smaller size, they can compete with the larger breeds. Of course there will still be a small number of people who live to show and their herds will remain but unless the remainder can be made to pay their way (or at least break even) the breed will not prosper. Unlike smaller animals, cows are not going to thrive in the 'pet' market (however much we love them). There just are not enough pet owners with the acreage needed to keep 2 or 3 cows. I am sorry to be such a wet blanket but I feel strongly that this matter needs to be addressed urgently. Great work has been done to save the Dexter breed from disappearing altogether but if it is not simply to be a curiosity, either in the showring or farm parks, breeders will have to work something out.
Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 9:53 pm
by Rob & Alison Kirk
Hello, Sylvia
Your comments on Dexter beef - survival of the breed. I have been very surprised at the small number of members on Clive's "Beef On Line" web site. Could this be that breeders supplying beef on a weekly/monthly basis are in the minority? I think because the average herd is around four cows, many breeders are content to farm their Dexters in other ways.
To supply beef on a regular basis, herd numbers would need to be around 24 cows. With so many Dexters currently for sale, I feel we should now be targetting the small/medium commercial beef producer.
With the Society stand attending several shows this year, it would benefit the breed if some of the promotion was dedicated to Dexter beef, giving facts and figures on production costs?
I agree with Rob R - the market for Dexter beef is not saturated, we just need more commercially minded farming people to come in and take the breed forward, which would benefit both small and large breeders.
Robert Kirk
Boram Dexters
Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 11:25 pm
by rodmet
Hi Rob and Alison, your post raises interesting issues and ties in with my own thoughts ie there are 3 groups - the pet/show group where profit is not really an issue, the semi pet/show group where profit is a factor and the commercial group where profit is important.
The pet/show group will continue to happily trundle along without wanting or neding change. Their numbers will decline as fewer younger entrants come on stream.
The semi pet/show group are presently the most vulnerable to today's adverse conditions and without some favourable changes will decline quickly because consistent profit is currently well nigh impossible.
The commercial group is all about maximising the premium value of the beef and despite the many impressive individual efforts it does not add up to a convincing national story in the way that say Angus does. To break through this I think it will need some form of cooperation that can transcend the problems like transport,TB,amateurism etc. The day there can be a central public auction for store and fat steers and heifers without ridiculous prices, coupled with rigorous breeding for weight gain and carcase this group will have arrived.
It is not too difficult to segment the Dexter population or even to predict where they are going if there is no change. What interests me is whether any one has ideas(or the interest) as to how to influence events and to reconcile the clear conflicts between the groups. I suppose we are back to my old plea for a central debate on where are now? where do we want to go? and how do we get there? To see the breed decline without that kind of discussion seems unfortunate to say the least.
Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 5:26 am
by Broomcroft
So what would you like to see happen? Anyone.
Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 8:14 am
by Martin
I have made the decision not to grow my breeding cow numbers but to concentrate on buying in store cattle for finishing, the but is that most store stock seem so far away! At the moment I could do with about another five or six animals for the grazing that I have but store animals on this site are too far away to make it viable to collect. Any advert that has an amount of cattle worth going to collect would take a long day with a truck and trailer, and at the moment I am too busy to be able to lose that amount of time.
This is the big problem, most Dexter keepers have full time jobs and the cows are a hobby. Improvements to the facilities on my farm are taking all of my spare time (no holiday booked for this year yet) and with haymaking just around the corner I cannot see my situation getting better for a while. When my workload is easier I will buy the animals required and maybe I'll have to put up with a long day on the road to do it.
Excuses for not doing things are easy to think of as I have demonstrated above. But all are valid to each person that makes them. I believe we as a society will continue with the arguments about 'where are we going' until we have more commercial herds that make a living for the owner and give some of the smaller producers an outlet for the animals that they cannot market themselves.
Martin. Medway Valley Dexters.
Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 8:48 am
by Woodmagic
I think Rodnet’s assessment covers it pretty well. The continual harassment by officialdom with regulations and form filling does not help, which is why I feel the DCS should keep its requirements to the minimum, leaving an impression of assisting rather than adding to that of being beleaguered
I have watched one enthusiast who lost interest because the cost of slaughter outweighs any advantages of the breed, and who has now gone back to the bigger breeds.
I also believe that the issue has geographic connotations, I suspect more herds in the northern half of the country are interested in running the herd on a commercial basis while southerners lean to the pet show aspect.
I would raise the subject I have brought up before, should more effort be made to recruit folks onto Council, by altering the rules and enabling participation through e-mail and telephone?
Attracting members, who by the very fact they are running their cattle commercially do not have the spare time that the hobby breeder has, to attend time consuming meetings, particularly with the venue favouring a select few. At present it requires great dedication and a very understanding partner to achieve this.
Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 11:19 am
by rodmet
With the hay stubbornly refusing to make I have time to follow up last night's comments by asking:
I wonder how any people would be interested in attending a centrally held one day discussion/conference with a theme of the Future of Dexters and How We Might Influence It(for the better!!)?
With enough attendees the morning could split into teams to discuss a particular aspect and those teams could report back to a forum in the afternoon for general discussion and, hopefully, decisions. I for one would be willing to help with the organisation of such an event, providing there was enough interest.
What say you????
Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 9:48 pm
by Rob & Alison Kirk
Hi Rod - Your theme "Future of Dexters and how we might influence it" sounds very interesting and something I would support. The biggest challenge would be to get the membership interested in attending. I feel a lot of Dexter people "do like to stay at home."
Your three groups do seem to be streets apart, albeit by a common thread of breeding a Dexter. I agree the production of Dexter beef is not a convincing story. The average herd size is too small compared with say, the Angus, for beef production, plus the fact that the Angus Society has a greater number of commercial farmers in their ranks. Many of our present day members have other work commitments, rather than purely farming their Dexters.
The Dexter is still known as "The Smallholders Cow." How many true smallholders do we have today? Is this holding the breed back? Is this having an influence on the commercial farmer? Should we be promoting the breed differently with a greater influence on beef, as other societies do?
Robert Kirk
Boram Dexters
Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 1:21 am
by happy hollidays
This is the third time I am trying to post my reply, if this fails I'm going to bed! When I first read Rodmet's comments I thought that they were very pesimistic. So I read it all again and find that they are realistic. I recall just before Clive introduced DBO, I wrote that I think that the smallholder/pet keeper is holding back the commercial Dexter owner. Until the government and farming bodies make allowances for the smaller sized Dexter, the breed will be restricted and financially penalised. I would imagine that a few more breeders will change to a larger breed of cattle due to costs before too long. It is typical of this country's attitude to business and development within farming. It makes me so cross and terribly disappointed. Good luck with the haymaking chaps.
Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:18 am
by Woodmagic
Martin’s contribution demonstrates why ‘Dexter people do like to stay at home’. I would say he is typical of many, and adds weight to my arguments that if we want to get representative members on Council we need to change the organisation. Unfortunately, for this reason, I believe the meeting suggested by Rodnet is a bit of a non-starter.
I have for years argued that the worldwide trend for commuting and the resulting ownership of a few acres, should give the Dexter a real boost. These people are never going to be big beef breeders, but they will produce a regular supply of bull calves. The resulting beef may well be worthy of a premium, but organisation of sales with distribution arbitrarily scattered, and many unskilled producers remains a problem, while slaughter and transport costs kill it as a financial winner.
Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:41 am
by Broomcroft
On a practical issue, is the problem restricted largely to heifers? I would like to (and may) take in more steers and would have no worry about selling them for beef. In fact I haven't got enough. But small heifers (or small steers but usually heifers) I wouldn't touch, so what happens to them? I would certainly take reasonable sized heifers.
I am itching to contribute but I'm up to my ears in haylage.
Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 3:09 pm
by Rob R
Well we're a pedigree commercial herd and will buy in steers provided they are;
a) not too far away or
b) in sufficient quantity to warrant a full load
And of course it helps if people are not expecting to us to pay £2+/kg too, as that destroys the margin.
We've recently bought in some steers of a different breed (Highland) to finish, as they were a group from a single farm & will provide the larger joints that some customer inevitably ask for. We're sticking with the Dexters though, as they are simply the best beef you can buy, coupled with a good grass fed management system results in a consistently high meat quality within the breed. There are Dexters & Dexters though, and we are sticking with pedigree stock because you just can't guarantee the quality in unregistered 'Dexter' beef.