Herd size - what is the average Dexter Herd size

carole · Post by **carole** » Tue May 01, 2007 5:48 pm

We are in the process of building ( is that the right term, not to sure) a herd at the moment and listen carefully to advice to not build the herd to quickly and develop a customer base.

In the meantime we would like to add ourselves to the excellent Dexter Beef Online scheme, but cannot join at this time as we do not have any steers ready.

This has prompted a question in mind concerning how many Dexters are kept and how many acres/hectares do you use for your herd. To start the ball rolling our herd today numbers 14 and we run them on 27 acres, ridiculous LU ratio I know, but does this make our herd really small or just average?

As a consequence are we all running small herds with small numbers of steers available through the year and therefore we will need many more herds on the site.

Look forward to replies, Carole

Sylvia · Post by **Sylvia** » Tue May 01, 2007 6:48 pm

The main thing to remember, Carole, is that whatever number of cows you have as a breeding group your land needs to support that number x 3. I know it sounds like stating the obvious, and it is, but it is so easy to find yourself with too many, as we have. Nice heifers arrive which would be an asset to the herd, old friends deserve to stay, you get the picture. The customer base is not easy to establlsh unless you are an expert salesperson because you need the beef there before you can offer it for sale - a very wide range of friends and associates helps a lot, just pray they aren't vegetarian. We tried to establish a 30 breeding cow group, giving 90 at most on 120 acres. And 30ish going each year. This we have discovered is far too many because selling the beef has proved far from successful here in Wales where it is competing with Wesh Black and many neighbours keeping a cow (of any breed) of their own. And if I sell it in to the butcher I'm lucky to get £1 per kg for it (and that was best under 30 month meat) I admit I'm a very poor salesperson which doesn't help. But I'd not be surprised to find most herds are on the small side because unless something turns up fairly quickly I'll certainly be heading that way too.

Broomcroft · Post by **Broomcroft** » Tue May 01, 2007 9:47 pm

Hi Carole

That's quite complex because it depends on your housing, if any, the soil type, grass quality, whether you're making your own fodder. Have you got a farmer friend who you could get to look at the land and comment. Then multiply the number of big cows that he would keep by 2-2.5, and then reduce by a safety margin?

Without seeing the set up I would have guessed at about 10-15 breeding cows? Does that sound about right? 15 would be fairly intense I think.

Martin · Post by **Martin** » Wed May 02, 2007 8:14 am

Sylvia,
I wrote an article for our local group newsletter about co-operation and feel that maybe this is the way to go in your situation, where you can produce up to 12 to 18 months and then sell for final finishing to someone in a more populated part of the country. It is something I am looking to do, I have grazing that is split between 3 farms and am also constrained by the lack of suitable buildings to overwinter and cannot run cows and bulls everywhere that is available to me, and will probably keep to about 10 cows. The fields available to me would be ideal for grazing youngstock for fattening and as I live in the highly populated county of Kent should be able to sell more meat than you purely because of my location. I am not in a position to carry this through at the moment but am sure this is the way forward for people like yourself and others that cannot produce enough beef. Agreements could be reached about price and transport so no one feels they have a bum deal, when you think of it it's how commercial farmers operate.
Just a thought.
Martin. Medway Valley Dexters. Kent

Penny · Post by **Penny** » Wed May 02, 2007 8:57 am

Totally support this, Martin. Sylvia and I have talked about this before, but be warned, transport costs can be rather prohibitive.

Penny

Broomcroft · Post by **Broomcroft** » Wed May 02, 2007 9:28 am

I totally agree, and given the choice, finishing is all I would do. I'm set up for it more than breeding really. By working that way, the flexibilty would brush off on everyone. My only concerns are the transfer of desease and making sure we only got good stock, with no tiny tiddlers or bags of bones. Would just have to deal with these problems so I wouldn't see them standing in the way.

I wouldn't take anything in that hadn't been on it's mother for minimum 6 months (?) but not over 12 either because the margin would have gone at a guess.

Carole - If you could get this arrangement, it changes your figures because beef stock would be off the farm quicker.

Sylvia · Post by **Sylvia** » Wed May 02, 2007 9:40 am

It would certainly be the answer to my problems if I could always sell almost all the yearlings in the Autumn, when they would be in that age group. As Penny said it is transport costs which really are a problem with this kind of deal and it wouldn't work for one or two travelling a long distance (unless their owner was prepared to take them in a trailer) but I wonder if a group of 20+ would work. Maybe there could even be collection farms for smaller producers so larger groups could be assembled to go together, but the rules are so very onerous (quite rightly) that it would mean very careful planning. I really hope something like this can be sorted, it would be so useful.

Sylvia · Post by **Sylvia** » Wed May 02, 2007 9:46 am

Clive, you put your post on while I was typing mine. I would say we were set up for breeding and could cheerfully leave the finishing (and selling meat) to others, although this wasn't the original idea. Maybe we all need to sort ourselves out into separate, supporting, camps and go forward like that. Utopia!

Broomcroft · Post by **Broomcroft** » Wed May 02, 2007 9:49 am

Perfection.

Sylvia · Post by **Sylvia** » Wed May 02, 2007 11:23 am

So how do we set this particular ball rolling?

Would a poll be useful to see who would prefer to breed, who to finish and who is happy as they are?

I'm not sure how to set up a poll, can anyone else?

I'd be happy to act as organiser for the scheme if one is needed (ie putting suppliers and buyers in touch). Or I suppose that might not be necessary if it is operated through the DBO website.

Broomcroft · Post by **Broomcroft** » Wed May 02, 2007 12:25 pm

Before we get stuck in I think some figures would be useful. If I, for example, were to concentrate on buying in and finishing, then I need to know some figures.

If I bought steers in at say, 9-12 months of age, what sort of liveweight would they be? (assuming no tiddlers, keep those for the home freezer). Then I can work out some figures based on the costs that have been quoted and see whether it makes any sense.

Anybody got liveweight figures at different ages?

And does anyone know the latest TBMM price for beef?

Martin · Post by **Martin** » Wed May 02, 2007 1:32 pm

I think you should look at private agreements between parties as like Clive I would want to be sure that things where ok with the animals before bringing them home, and would prefer an ongoing arangement which would allow both parties to have total trust in each other. I am at the moment looking for another trailer (my present one only takes 2 cows and calves) and I would prefer one a bit bigger which would mean I could collect maybe 8 or 10 yearlings at a time.
Animals could be weigh banded to give a rough idea of weight, ideally find a local weigh bridge to weigh before and after loading. Price could be guided using the Farmers Weekly market average for that week.Transport costs could be shared with each party party paying for one leg of the journey. In essence everything is negotiable as long as both parties agree and are happy with what they get from the deal, I believe the way forward would be to have two lists, one of who has what for sale and another with who wants what. I believe Mark has already spoken about adding store cattle for sale on this site, which is the ideal place for it, the Dexter Beef Online site should be for what it was first intended. You will find that after a while less store animals would be offered as people buy and sell from the same people every year. It all works in the commercial sector so I don't see why it shouldn't in the Dexter world.
Carole, on your initial enquiry about stocking levels, experience is what will tell you. Growing slowly is probably the best way as you will get to a stage where you realise you have enough mouths to feed. It is imposible to give even a rough guide to stocking levels as we all treat our grassland differently and management knowledge differs greatly, there is a big difference between new leys and permanent pasture etc. there is an almost endless list of reasons why someone can carry twice as much stock on the same acreage as another. Here in Kent we have had no rain for over a month and I am concerned about grass growth already, the weather another factor.
I am sure you will learn when you have reached your limit.

Martin.

Sylvia · Post by **Sylvia** » Wed May 02, 2007 1:32 pm

I might be able to run mine over the alpaca's walk over scale during the first week in June but mine are between 10 and 14 months so too old for you, so that's not much help.

carole · Post by **carole** » Wed May 02, 2007 1:39 pm

Well what have I done, this is a great start to a good idea, I do hope that the aspect in terms of stores being sold on this excellent site goes forward.

In the meantime thanks very much for your replies so far, they make really interesting reading. As has been said there are so many factors which can change the stocking rates.

Finally on the rain front, we have had a few heavy showers in recent nights in Cornwall but I am sure we could all do with more rain.

Thanks again Carole

Sylvia · Post by **Sylvia** » Wed May 02, 2007 2:28 pm

Send some of that rain our way please, Carole, we are desperate for some to get the grass growing properly. Also apologies for hi-jacking your first, very valid, query.