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Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 1:30 pm
by Woodmagic
Ann has suggested elsewhere that somebody should start a discussion on Dexters and Beef. As one who has raised the subject of milking Dexters frequently, I am prepared to make a start.
As a Dexter breeder there are two possible outlets for the surplus- firstly breeding stock, secondly beef. Half the calves on average are going to be male and the majority of those must go for beef. Consequently roughly half the income is going to be from beef, and the E.U. rules are now so oppressive that they militate against the small animal. This in turn is producing a tendency to breed bigger Dexters. It is a sad fact that although the need to retain the genes of our primitive livestock is now appreciated, the true Dexter could disappear, because it is disadvantaged financially.
As far as the milk v. beef issue is concerned, an effort can be made to improve carcase quality, but if the milk is not retained, the result is likely to be a calf that never reaches its true potential, because the dam is unable to provide the basic essential of a plentiful milk supply which the calf needs in the early months. Many beef breeds have reached near disaster on this score.
Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 10:35 pm
by Penny
Hi Beryl,
I would like to say that despite trying to earn a living from beef ( and as you say, that is really a challenge with the size of the dexter) I do not keep "big" animals in my herd. I find that the best returns are from the "medium" aka small non-shorts rather than anything bigger and I believe that Di Smith supports this. The big ones are all frame and less meat!
Also the strongest young stock is off the milkiest cows, so it is essential to keep this quality. I agree that it is often the big, beefy cows that have a poor milk supply, and consequently the calves do not do as well.
I share your concern about the direction the breed could take if the emphasis is on beef production,due to the misconception about size and beef production which is why I still feel that all beef producers could benefit from a national meeting to share information/statistics/genetics/discuss promotion etc.
HOWEVER, I do think that beef production does need significant support, for the long-term viability of the breed. The traditional smallholder market for breeding stock is reducing due to worries about TB. ,difficulties hiring a bull etc.
The breeding herd has also increased dramatically so there has to be a market for the offspring or prices will plummet.
I have sadly never had the opportunity to finish a Woodmagic steer, but I would be very interested to see the weights of all the different cuts from a well-finished, grass fed steer. If anyone out there has this information perhaps they could let me know?
Regards
Penny
Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 9:17 pm
by Penny
Just to clarify, it was statistics from a Woomagic steer that I would dearly love to have, as it is this size, with retained milkiness, that I believe could give the best returns taking into account production and feed costs.
Even if you do not have the weights of all the cuts, if you have liveweight/deadweight information, that would still be useful.
Shame I am the wrong end of the country to you, Beryl!
Penny
Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 10:32 am
by Broomcroft
Hello
Firstly, I agree in that beef needs promotion. It is totally undersold and under-represented for such a top quality product.
The beef is 100% why we went in Dexters and it is the feature that I am interested in. We didn't fall into Dexters, it was a considered decision after doing a year or more of tasting everything except Kobe. Until tasting Dexter, best by far was Angus we had in New York, and it was better than anything we'd had anywhere from any breed, but in our tastings right at the end of our trials, we tried Dexter, which we hadn't considered as a beef breed at all (like most people). It was consistently better than anything in our opinion and that of our friends. We had plans drawn up already to establish a herd of around 90-100 Angus sucklers but diverted to Dexters because of the flavour (mainly).
On the size issue, I don't know whether this helps or hinders, but I crudely categorise our stock as big, small and tiny. In reality, they are all small but different degrees of small!
What I personally describe as a "big" steer from our herd would finish at 200-225 kg deadweight and our "small" (but very chunky) short-legged steers at about 150-160 kg. We have never had what I would call a "tiny" male, so no figures there. We do have some really tiny females though.
Most of our cows are what I would call just slightly dairy'ish, in varying degrees, and our bulls are beefy. We have had excellent results (so far!) in both milkiness and beef from this combination and I am really pleased. Our bull was picked very carefully and with expert help.
The only really big, large-framed, beefy cow we ever had (bought on the spur of the moment) was culled because she produced immensively fatty offspring.
To us, our best steers are the ones around 190-225 kg deadweight, because they are reasonably ecomonic / commercial, so our butchers will take them. We sell any "small" ones direct.
Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 1:53 pm
by Woodmagic
It is a pity we live at opposite ends of the country Penny, I have never practised carrying my steers on for finishing, but sell them at weaning. I have had the same buyers coming back again and again, so am reasonably satisfied that they must run on well. I have at various times been promised figures, but none has ever materialised. Am now making enquiries to see if I can come up with something.
When I moved here, I was somewhat bewildered, to be repeatedly told that Dexter beef was first class, coming from local Devonian beef producers it was somewhat surprising, it transpired that one of my steers had been bought locally, and some of the resulting product had found its way to most of my neighbours!
I am simply an observer on the problems of marketing, but have been repeatedly told that it cost roughly the same to slaughter and process a Dexter as it does a Charollais, and this provides a reason to breed the Dexter bigger. The infuriating fact is that most of the escalating costs are due to BSE rules, although no Dexter has ever gone down with it
Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 4:52 am
by Broomcroft
Hello
This is probably a daft idea and I'm sure it must have been suggested before, but if there is a conflict between the requirements of dexter beef and retaining an original gene pool, why not have two classes of dexters? Dexters and Beef Dexters, or the other way around, Dexters and Pure-Bred Dexters/Original Dexters. Like Herefords/Traditional Herefords, Angus/Angus (Original Population).
To retain the genes of our primitive livestock is too precious to let slip, but the beef is too tasty to keep to ourselves!
Clive
Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 9:45 am
by Martin
I have mentioned it before on this site, but I too am looking to cross my Dexters with a more beefier breed. I have at the moment 2 steers that I am finishing, one short and one non short, the short is very stocky and will have some good cuts of beef on him when he is butchered, the non short is a rangier animal and although he is well grown is not putting on condition as I would like. I am next weekend going to buy a course mixed ration to try and finish him as well as I can, he is 24 months in June. I have to find out if there is somewhere local that will take over 24 month animals if I want to finish him on grass, (everything seems so complicated now!).
Putting that problem aside, I have decided to get rid of my present bull and try to find something much beefier, I have thought of our local breed the Sussex which has a good reputation for quality beef and I believe you can still get a 'traditional' type. I like my Dexter cows and will continue to keep them, my problem like so many others is costs at the end, where the dexter is penalised and I feel I must try to make the most of each beast that I kill.
Martin.
Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 11:28 am
by oliver1921
We are rearing both short and non-short for beef and are finding it possible to finish shorts at 24 months but find the non-shorts need about 28 months to put the meat on (grass and silage fed only and living outside 12 months of the year). All our cattle are achieving between 180 and 220kg deadweight. we tried selling through our local butcher which was doing very well and demand was extremely high but now with the 24 month rule the butcher has lost interest because of the beef on the bone situation so are now supplying a couple of restaurants for which demand is outstripping supply - our returns are also better and they are not so bothered about the beef on the bone - it is amazing how much 'steak' he sells from our Dexters!
I am convinced that any Dexter producer will have to supply this way or sell direct to make the premium needed to make dexter production viable.
We have not had the situation yet of fatteneing up any of our heifers but this may arise soon, can anyone advise on ages or weights - they seem so small compared with the steers.
Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 1:17 pm
by Broomcroft
Martin
I've just taken the tallest, rangeist Dexter I've ever seen to the butcher this morning. I had to take him to 29 months. At 24 months he was useless and I was concerned. I fed him on good ad-lib quality haylage/silage and a little bit of hard feed and he filled out quite suddenly at about 26-27 months.
Re crossing, I've started a topic on crossing because I'm interested to do the same as well. I've been thinking of Angus because I like them and the beef but I've zero experience in crossing.
Clive
Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 1:23 pm
by wagra dexters
How tall and how rangy? It would be interesting to see his conversion rate. Margaret
Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 1:44 pm
by Broomcroft
He was something like 2 inches taller than the tallest I've ever seen and I've seen them on the society's limit for a bull. Technically, he probably wasn't a Dexter even though registered. He was rangy, but not bony/skinny. I will have stats back soon hopefully.
He wasn't our breeding even though he was born on the farm.
Clive
Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 1:52 pm
by wagra dexters
PS. Clive, I can't see why anyone could object to a cross bred program to meet beef requirements, so long as bulls selected specifically for added frame score were not registered as Dexter stud stock. Unregistered commercial herds need not compromise registered seed stock stud herds.
What we obsessive purists want to guard against is further introgession and contamination of the precious primitive genes that may well be the same genes that make our Dexter meat so tasty in the first place.
We, personally, have 3 steers and a heifer running on at present, and a further 7 steers as yet unweaned. We eat well, as do the children, grandchildren, and hotel customers.
Bon appetit, Margaret W.
Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 12:34 pm
by Broomcroft
Absolutely agree.
Clive
Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 8:10 am
by Broomcroft
Martin
Re your question on crossing. If this helps, I've had various responses to my search on the same subject, and people have used Blondes, Angus, Hereford and Shorthorn and others, with successful results. The only comment I have had on the beef was that there was more of it (would you believe), and that the Dexter taste was there but diluted. I suppose picking a breed that finishes on grass and quickly is an obvious route. I am personally in favour of using Angus, which is what I may do on some our ours as a trial if I get the chance.
Clive
Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 9:44 am
by Martin
Hi Clive,
My bull is booked in for the big pasture in the sky for Tuesday next, which was done on purpose to concentrate my mind on finding a replacement before June when I will be due to introduce the bull for March calving. So I don't have long, and the search for his replacement starts in earnest. To be honest there are other reasons for getting rid of him and not offering him for sale. I am in no particular rush to outcross and will be happy to find a nice beefy Dexter for this year, also I have a couple of young heifers that I would like covered and a larger bull of a different breed would not be suitable for them as I like to calve them at 2 years. My hope is to either find a nice Dexter bull to hire in for this year, or find a young enough one to use on the herd and then put him in the freezer in September.
Martin