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Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 11:40 am
by Peter thornton
I've just been re-assessing our smallholding.
I guess we are typical Dexter owners. We try to have 4 breeding cows therefore end up with around a dozen beasts at any one time. We end up selling about 2 females each year and slaughter (on average) 2 steers per year.
We've always kept pedigree, both with our sheep and our cattle.
Now we have just decided to go half bred with the sheep, for various reasons (mainly the cost of MV accreditation and the difficulty of finding MV accredited overwintering) Having made this decision, I'm amazed at how much we are able to reduce our costs and at how many miles we were travelling in the past. (Carting around sheep to various sales, overwintering etc etc)
What do we do with our Dexters?
I've just sold my bull due to the fact that I want to keep his daughters. My last bull was purchased as a calf and proved a very satisfactory arrangement. However, it's now just too expensive and complicated to arange all of the DNA tests etc.
I can hire one in, but we live in rural Cumbria and inevitably you end up doing somewhere between 200-500 miles.
Prices for average animals seem to be falling rapidly whereas there is a growing market for the beef.
Would I be better running my herd as non pedigree/unregistered? It would solve the bull problem, I'd just buy a bull calf, use it a couple of times then put it in the freezer.
Is anyone else feeling this way? And if so, is the society listening, and thinking about the wisdom of the overcomplication re bull registration etc?
Is it time for a re-assesment in the light of the reality of 21st Century farming?
Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 1:06 pm
by Rob R
As far as beef production goes I would say that a move away from pedigree to commercial would put you in a different bracket as far as sales go, as the pedigree/Birth Notification system inevitably also gives some assurance that what you are selling is actually Dexter, but that depends on your market, of course, if you are going further down the commercial route you may possibly loose some of the premium that the Dexter beef reputation may bring.
Is there a shortage of (good) bulls in Cumbria, or Dexters in general?
Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 4:18 pm
by Peter thornton
No particular shortage, but with 4 cows (and their calves) its a lot of travelling around. Much easier to buy a bull calf, it's just this hassle with everything needing to be DNA'd
Why is the society making life so difficult for the ordinary owner?
Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 11:37 pm
by rodmet
Peter, You raise a most difficult question. Why make it so difficult for small Dexter owners? It is because, despite all the protestations, the Cental DCS people, like the current Government's agricultural policy secretly and perhaps unconsciously, have a different agenda. In the case of Government it is to create a controlled Agro business built around as large a unit size as possible. In the case of Dexters it is to passively watch the national herd numbers halve in the next five years and see the triumph of a "club" more akin to the pet rabbit society than a comercially motivated cattle Society( except that pet rabbits do not have a bulldog gene and if they did their owners would be doing everything to eradicate it).
Can anything change this course? Regrettably I think not because change can only come through the membership and there is no sign that a commercially driven Society is what people want.
Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:20 am
by Peter thornton
I suppose we could go to the AGM, ecxept that it's on the same day as the York sale!!
I can only contrast this society with the Lleyn Sheep society, of which I'm also a member. There is a society that knows exactly what it is about. They put an enormous effort into running excellent sales (from which they get a good income) This underpins the success of the breed. Our society has made no effort to build the York sale, in fact they fell out with the auction centre. Not the normal way for any breed society to succeed on behalf of its members.
I think the crisis will come in about a year or so, when the societies income will begin to dry up.
What the society has achieved is to allow the sale price of heifers to fall to a level where it makes more sense to breed entirely for beef. This is a good thing in that it tends to keep quality higher BUT it will have a catastrophic effect on the numbers in the registered herd.
So, what can we do?
Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 9:00 am
by Stuart Tarrant
What a couple of Jeremiah's!!
1. The AGM papers show that membership of DCS has risen from 1,073 members in 2003 to 1,262 in August 2006. That is steady success and DCS probably now ranks as one of the largest cattle breed societies in the UK in terms of membership. Also, Female pedigree registrations have increased from 1,222 to 1,920 pa over a similar period.
2. Anyone seriously breeding Dexters will insist on DNA bull parent verification. This is the same requirement for most other UK Cattle Breed Societies. Also, it is mandatory for the live cattle export of bulls and for AI semen sales.
3.The beef price has increased significantly recently but lower quality breeding Dexters have declined. Good quality breeding animals have retained and have sometimes enhanced their sale values.
4. There is a live cattle export market waiting to be opened up and some breeders have already exported Dexters.
Stuart Tarrant
:D
Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 9:32 pm
by rodmet
Hi Stuart, if only there were two Jeremiahs, regrettably there are a lot more. Your stats on past performance are interesting but you know more than most that it is future expectations that are crucial. Is anyone at the centre modelling future outcomes like a minimum drop in DCS revenues of £20,000 plus and making decisions on how to avoid it/ manage it?? Is anyone thinking about how to put confidence back into a market that is caught between the twin prongs of an ever-raising bar in terms of the difficulty and cost of keeping Dexter cattle and falling average prices?
Ok beef prices are up but they go no way near to compensate for the loss of subsidies - subsidies that did a great deal to support your glowing historical figures. Furthermore those better beef prices are being severly eroded by cost escalalion way above inflation at every stage of the beef production chain.
What would be nice is to have a Council who want a two way dialogue with members, who recognise the need to bolster confidence in the market, who seek opinion on the way forward and who arrive at a strategy that is clear, published and supported by the membership. What the decision to hold the AGM on the same day as the most important Dexter market North of the Trent is that the Council is in absolute opposite mode.
Where am I in this? My herd is currently 60 plus. By the year end it will be at 30% less, partly and most unfortunately by culling some nice(and young) commercial type sucklers. Next year most of last year's heifers will be beefed as will this years. If the outlook does not improve I will cull the sucklers further. I feel let down by the Society and clearly my devil's advocate role as nark from the North continues to fall on deaf ears. I just hope that very soon enough people will recognise the problems and want to do something about them.
Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 10:21 pm
by Duncan MacIntyre
I have to lend some support to Stuart's view of this, we have been predicting a fall in the numbers and popularity of the Dexter during the last 10 years or so, certainly for the last 5, and the increase in numbers keeps on going. Quality animals always maintain their price if sold in a sensible fashion, and an excess of females in no bad thing for allowing selection of breeding stock.
I have long been of the opinion that as numbers increase so will the number of unregistered stock, and I see no problem with that as long as people realise the importance of being registered for production of certified purebred stock. If we look at any other breed, be they Ayrshires, Friesian/Holstein or Aberdeen Angus, only a small proportion of the "pure breds" are registered pedigreed by the breed society. As Dexters increase in numbers this will happen in our breed and is nothing to be afraid of. What is wrong with having a herd of 60 Dexter cows of which only the best 20 are registered with the society, but the others purebred and either bred to the Dexter bull for sale of pure beef or else crossed with a larger breed bull for a more commercial beef calf production.
What both sides of this debate need to do is to tolerate change and variety of systems of management within the broad spectrum of Dexter breeding.
The one area I do think the DCS should probably do more in is organising marketing of Dexter beef, but as usual it depends on the cooperation of individuals to make this possible. Instead it seems that we always end up developing micro markets and defending our own corner rather than cooperating.
Duncan
Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 12:16 am
by Mark Bowles
I have said my bit before,there seems a definite decline in newcomers to the dexter breed this year, for whatever reason.I will have put on 50to 60 dexters this month onto the sales list, is this the sites popularity, i fear not, just breeders stuggling to sell there stock.I have sold all i need this year, in the end, it was a slow start and was helped by a small export of some females to N Ireland.People need to learn,especially now,that you need to breed quality to succeed above your competion, how many times do you here the saying, im not like you, im not interested in showing my animals,meaning they just dont take the time and effort about their breeding programme.
As far as the DCS having the AGM on the same day as York sale, i think its pitifull.
Late nite rant over!
Mark
Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 9:10 am
by Sylvia
i AM ABSOLUTELY APPALLED BY THE FACT THAT YOU BELIEVE, MARK, THAT PEOPLE WHO DO NOT WISH TO SHOW THEIR ANIMALS DO NOT TAKE THE TIME AND EFFORT ABOUT BREEDING THEIR ANIMALS. Maybe this applies to some people but I am certain just as many are quietly and carefully breeding animals of excellent quality. Just because we do not have the time or temperament to go to shows, and we probably would not pay £1000s (although I have paid £850) for an animal it does not follow that we are breeding rubbish. Getting a ribbon at a show does not make an animal better, it is still the same animal it just means it was probably the best animal on that day, in front of that judge. I usually have the greatest admiration for people who find time to prepare their animals and go to shows, but I will not stand by and let comments like yours pass.
Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 10:44 am
by Rob R
I wouldn't use the word appauled, but I agree to some extent with the above. My Dexters have to pay their way commercially, as well as being a pedigree herd. I used to show them years ago when I was still at school & run the herd as a hobby, it was nice to have rosettes & prize cards to show for it, but when you add up the cost of time involved (especially when Dexters fit into a wider farming scheme with limited resources) it can be more an activity for pleasure rather than anything else. A lot of people out there are showing as a hobby (not just Dexters, or even cattle), selecting the showiest stock for that purpose. Also, do the show ring results give a true indication of good commercial traits? There always used to be quite a divide between show animals & commercial stock, not because of a lack of quality in the latter, but just that they were a different type. It would be nice to have the time & resources to return to showing one day, but in the meantime I always try breeding good quality with all the stock on the farm.
Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 11:21 am
by Mark Bowles
Steady on there Sylvia!,
i did not condem every person who does not show, i merely passed comment on what i hear said to me out and about.I certainly dont think that any animal that is shown is streets ahead of anything else, you only have to go round a few shows to see that.
It just seems like a good excuse used by SOME people to not look properly at their breeding stock and use good bulls for their herd improvement.
Mark
Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 12:53 am
by Peter thornton
Stuart used the phrase:
"Anyone seriously breeding Dexters"
I wonder what this means?
It does seem that the DCS is being skewed towards the "serious" breeders. Is there still a place for someone who just keeps a few cows (yet still keeps good quality animals)?
And can someone please address the question of the sales!
Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 11:17 am
by John C
This is the system that we have started to use.
We only have the time and space to keep a few dexters.
We currently have two non pedigree heifers, an in calf one and one thats hopefully in calf again with a bull calf at foot.
We have a non pedigree bull that will be going in the freezer next month now that he's done the business for us.
At some time in the future we will purchase a cheap young bull and start the cycle again.
In this way I hope to get three animals in our freezer every two years.
Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 9:19 am
by Woodmagic
You have started something Peter! I have been concerned for some time that there does not appear to be sufficient communication between membership and Council. I could not believe that the AGM had been allowed to clash with the York sale. Why is there not one member with interests in that area who has volunteered for Council? What will enable volunteers to come forward and participate? When I was on Council I appealed for members to contact me if they wanted discussion on any subject, I never heard from anyone.
Regarding the potential fall in membership, as one of the Jeremiahs, I can only say when you have been there, you are more aware of the danger; I saw the breed nearly disappear in the middle of the last century. The Dexter attracts a very different owner than most of the bigger breeds. The modern trend for commuting with a few acres which call out to be utilised, and a desire to know more about the origins of your food has little to do with ‘serious breeding’.
Although I have never managed to rouse any interest in showing, I would resent the suggestion that it implicated a lack of careful breeding on my part. I applaud those who do, since it is an excellent advertising window Many folks come into the breed because they want to show, they enjoy the camaraderie, and look upon it as their holiday season.
What is certain is that many resent the agro of the everlasting form filling. When it resulted in sizeable subsidies for half size animals it made good sense. Now as well as a government that has no sympathy for the farming lobby, we have a Society that seems to be ignoring the plea of many breeders to keep things simple and as inexpensive as possible, it is likely to provide a sizeable deterrent. to those who want to keep a few Dexters and enjoy them