What do you think about bulls with horns?

Farrant · Post by **Farrant** » Wed Aug 02, 2006 7:42 pm

I need some advice please!!!
We have recently bought a lovely young non short red bull who we plan to hire out in the future. The advice that I need is whether or not to keep him with horns. Will anyone want to hire him if he has horns? Will removing his horns result him looking rather angular in the head and therefore put people off? ... and lastly what is everyone's opinion on removing horns from cattle aged 3 years+ (i've had tips of bandaging to stop things falling into the sinus... just wondering if there are any other welfare tips out there)

Duncan MacIntyre · Post by **Duncan MacIntyre** » Wed Aug 02, 2006 10:45 pm

If the bull is not going to be constantly under your control you maybe need to assess the risks of damage by the horns a little differently. If you keep a bull with horns I think you need to be fairly sure that the management and facilities are such that there is no undue risk of anyone being attacked by him, because whilst a bull with a polled or dehorned head may well be able to do substantial damage, one with horns which knows how to use them can with one blow do a lot more.

I used to keep my cows with horns on but changed to dehorned or polled when I changed to loose housing in the winter, but I have always dehorned bulls if I keep them more than 2 years old, usually done young. If I am dehorning an older bull of any breed I need them well restrained in a proper crush, good local anaesthesia and rompun if they are too fractious. I use a saw rather than a guillotine because it causes less bleeding, and you can take off plenty round the horn to prevent re-growth, a very important point with Dexters. I use artery forceps to twist any bleeding arteries and do not cauterise the wound, a little blood loss at the time is nothing compared to the use of a hot iron on an open wound. The less you do to the wound the sooner it will heal. On no account tackle the job during the fly season, even with use of modern fly control I think there is risk of maggots. It is not a job for the faint hearted and probably best left to vets.
You will see many bulls about with a bit of horn growing where someone has made a less than 100% job, but these are nowhere as dangerous as a natural pointed horn. Do not be too afraid of the open wound, they usually heal with remarkable speed. I wound not even consider the use of bandages, just fresh air. If he is being dehorned late there will be a substantial amount removed, but if he has a good broad head the result should be quite acceptable in my mind.

Duncan

Martin · Post by **Martin** » Thu Aug 03, 2006 8:26 am

I can only second Duncans advice. There is no way I would entertain a bull with horns, I had two horned cows who where constant bullies and upset the natural order of things in the herd. When their horns where removed there was a little blood, but nothing substantial, my vet did the job in January and I had no problem with the cows at all. It was just rather funny watching them angle their heads to get into the round feeder when as their horns had been removed there was no need.

Sylvia · Post by **Sylvia** » Thu Aug 03, 2006 8:43 am

I also had full horns taken off an older cow as we have a disbudded/polled herd. This is a job for a vet with plenty of experience with cattle. It hasn't done her any harm and she looks so much more approachable now. I have my own polled bull, but if I wanted to hire in I would not consider a bull with horns however good he was genes-wise.

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Thu Aug 03, 2006 2:37 pm

Not a lot I can add to Duncan's advice, other than perhaps to add that after dehorning adult cattle (which often leaves a sizeable hole which appears to lead into the depths of the skull...) it's best not to feed hay from a hay rack for a little while to reduce the risk of introducing foreign material into the open wounds; it's best to feed off the floor if possible.

And a little blood goes a long way.... the whole procedure often looks frightening to the inexperienced.

oliver1921 · Post by **oliver1921** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 2:46 pm

I must admit that i do like cows with horns (the only ones that do not have are naturally polled) our bull is dehorned and i would continue this in future. We let our bull out and while we are quite happy with horns I do know that some people are not and you may be limited in the future

Kathy Millar · Post by **Kathy Millar** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 4:58 pm

I wouldn't have horned animals on the property. I watched my (dehorned) cow beat up my 6 month old bottle-fed heifer and I think she would have been dead if there had been horns involved.

I had a 2 year old heifer dehorned in December few years back and while it was really ugly and did get pus in it, it healed well and she looks gorgeous.

Kathy

Louisa Gidney · Post by **Louisa Gidney** » Sun Aug 06, 2006 8:41 am

I have a horned herd and do not dehorn either breeding bulls or freezer models. Zanfara Lawrence, born 1997, was hired out as a breeding bull from 1998 (see photo on the Livestock page of my website www.rentapeasant.co.uk). He has travelled all round Durham & Northumberland and none of the people who hired him had any qualms, or problems, with his horns. In fact some people saw them as a positive asset, urban fringe farm with problems with people not staying on footpaths. Horned bull in field with no footpath = no trespassers! Lawrence has now moved to the Dingwall area and will be travelling herds in the area. Again, no reports of any antipathy to horns. I've already had one disappointed person wanting to use Lawrence again this year.
My previous horned bulls, Dalmuir Cyclone & Zanfara Quince, were also widely used with no negative feedback, ever, about their horns.
I think horns keep one's stockmanship on edge. One is always alert to which animal is where & it's behaviour. I've had the odd bump from horns over the years but this has inevitably been my own fault for being in the way and has been from cows, never the bull. I've been kicked more often and that's the same whether or not they have horns.
I've never found the local butchers to have a problem with horns either. Took a 2 year old horned, non-breeding, bull in last week, never been haltered. Loaded, travelled & unloaded very calmly.
Over recent years it has been very noticeable that there has been an increase in commercial suckler cows having their horns left on in this area. So perhaps there may be regional differences in attitude. When I started keeping Dexters, cattle on local hill farms were still tied up in byres with neck chains & horns stop them slipping the chain off their heads, so the great de-horning of the 1960's may have had less impact up here.

Woodmagic · Post by **Woodmagic** » Mon Aug 07, 2006 2:51 pm

My advice would be to take the horns off, once the weather is suitable. Many folks in this area, who use a hired bull, would not contemplate one with horns. If Mink 1st had his horns when he challenged me, I doubt I would be writing this today. I was badly bruised when he attacked me, just after I had led him out of the lorry on his return from hiring out. I couldn’t climb a five-barred gate for about a month after, but I don’t think I would have survived, if he had been horned. . Most of my bulls have remained extremely tractable and easily handled, but one can never trust them, or take them for granted.

I have had experience twice, over the years, of a horned cow attacking when with a newborn calf, and that can also be extremely dangerous. I remember, years ago, tying horned cows in their standings, and it was not uncommon for them to accidentally give a nasty knock, as they tried to shake their hay out, on one occasion I remember a herdswoman losing an eye. It can be purely accidental, but horns are supplied by nature as weapons, not ornaments. .

forestblaze · Post by **forestblaze** » Mon Aug 07, 2006 3:56 pm

If you are not confident your bull will pick up on this and know he has the upper hand on this rare ocassion I go along with the majority but please have it done properly Sue Osborne Castlemears Dexters all horned.

Rob R · Post by **Rob R** » Mon Aug 07, 2006 6:46 pm

I like to see animals with horns but I wouldn't be too confident hiring a strange bull in if it had horns, nor would I be keen to hire out a bull with horns, as you are not always going to be hiring to experienced breeders. I've started to leave the heifers horned now but not the bulls. That said, we've never had problems with the steers or bulls that we never got round to disbudding. And if I ever had an animal which such a poor temperament, he wouldn't make it to be a breeder, no matter what his other credentials were.

forestblaze · Post by **forestblaze** » Mon Aug 07, 2006 7:55 pm

Rob sweetie I know the young man we are talking about and there isnt a vicious bone in his body but as we know Dexters have a great personnality bull or cow they will get the better of you if they can if they are happy in their home environment is'nt that why we keep them, but if you are a relative newcomer surely better safe that sorry be it heifer, cow or bull. best wishes Sue Osborne, Castlemears Dexters, all horned.

Farrant · Post by **Farrant** » Tue Aug 08, 2006 8:06 pm

Thank you all so much for your advice. We think that we will have his horns off later in the year... and we will definitely be getting a vet to do the job properly.

Caroline

P.S. Sue, Merlin is fantastic and has settled in brilliantly within the herd.

Louisa Gidney · Post by **Louisa Gidney** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 6:23 am

A small point with regard to stockmanship. When I was doing the research before I embarked on my smallholding, it became clear that the weather could be a pre-disposing factor for seemingly unprovoked attacks by bulls. Trying to move a bull in very hot or hot & thundery/oppressive/midgey weather appeared to be a common factor. I therefore try and load/travel in the cool of the day during the summer.

ann · Post by **ann** » Thu Aug 10, 2006 2:11 pm

Ref removing horns

Being slightly creasy about blood, when I had my bulls horns removed I pointed this out to my vet, who was horrifid that I should suggest we would have a lot of blood and sure enough he removed the horns and we had no blood, only he left me with a tourniquet to remove next day from a rather annoyed bull as I feel we made a mistake putting a ring in him on the same day.

When I queried how I was surpose to remove the tourniquet my Vets just smiled and said he was sure I would managed.

I did with a lasso and then a halter.

P.S he had been badly dehorned when I brought him and the horns started regrowing into his head. So if you plan to keep a bull calf, please make sure you de horn them properly.