Dexters and Beef - Where do we go from here

[Broomcroft]

Duncan

Words of wisdom.

A dual purpose breed indeed. The only thing I would add, if I may, is how many dairy herds are there and how many beef herds are there, and that the society ought to represent that balance (or at least to an extent) and be a real supporter of dexter beef, which most beef producers think they are not. Which is where we came in.

Clive

[wagra dexters]

I do hope you are right, Duncan, that the pure Dexter breeders have nothing to fear. Even if the UK DCS herd book is closed to grading up, and DNA is used to parent verify before registration, there could be a risk if type & standard are not adhered to. My concern is that many Dexter breeders here still look to UK for fresh pure lines.
As you most likely know, the Lowline is a pure Angus, and the Squaremeater is a Murray Grey (which itself is a one hundred year old composite). The breeders in these downsizing cases, diverging from the standard by selection, have used different names to describe their new product. I hope the same would happen with the faction that want to take the Dexter off at a tangent.

[Peter thornton]

Duncan is absolutely right. The Dexter is a great dual purpose animal and should be treasured as that. The great thing for me is that it is a hardy little breed and calves easily. For an amateur, that's really important.

I said earlier that there were various ways forward for our society but didn't actually express a preference.

Here goes!

1.I don't think we are big enough to promote 2 types of Dexter
2. I think that there is perhaps a little too much evidence around of previous grading up and that the breed could do with tightening up SLIGHTLY(!) Most breed societies do this by inspection of the male.
3. The show judges should use a beef standard when judging. This wouldn't mean a great change in our animals, in fact it would be a bad thing if this was to happen. I think it was Mary Kay who once pointed out that the beef on a young calf is built by milk.
4. We should get rid of the dwarf gene.

OK, ready to be shot down!

Oh, and as this is the longest thread for a long time - we really do need a proper National (even International) debate about this. Perhaps a special conference might be the way forward for this and a few other issues?

[Woodmagic]

I had become somewhat despondent with the general criticism about the amount of crossing, but the work so far by the Cardiff team suggests we are, in fact suffering far less from introgression than most other breeds. Once the experimental work is completed we should use the information we have gained to ensure we stay that way, a method far superior to trying to accomplish anything by inspection of bulls.
Duncan’s excellent summing up says it all. The breed has always been famous for the amount of milk that it produces for its size, and that is demonstrated by the excellent weaned calves it can boast. I know of Charolais, and even Devon where originally it was actually milked, yet today’s dam cannot produce enough to rear a decent calf. Dual purpose is always a tightrope act, and we have survived very well. I know of no Dexter judge who doesn’t look for beef as well as milk; there have been numerous arguments in the past about which classes we should enter for, but unfortunately there are no recognised dual purpose, and the Society has, I think rightly, said we should not ignore the milk. We have always catered for a wide variety of breeders and that I think is the strength of the Society and fits the animal it supports. I have found this discussion fascinating, and it would probably be a good idea to organise a forum, unfortunately I shall not be able to participate.

[Broomcroft]

Beef Dexters
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I actually call mine beef Dexters when I show them to beef customers (small 'b' in beef) to get a point across. It works. They are just Dexters like anyone else's, but zero shorts for the butcher because I get up to 50% more beef from my non-shorts and the taste is top-notch, no different from the shorts.

I am almost certainly going to produce crosses because of my market, who want tasty, healthy, grass-fed beef, but my foundation will always be pedigree dexters bought from dexter herds on in-house bred.

Objectives
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Hello Moomin - I got the Objectives from the Society's Annual Trustees Report (31st December 2005) from Companies House. If you want a copy from me then just drop me an email at "clive@broomcroft.com" and I'll copy them to you. I had to type them out because it was an image so I might have made some typos, but looking at them again, they look the same to me and don't seem to make sense.

Clive

[Mark Bowles]

What do i do with my 90% short females when the dwarf gene is removed or banned, probably set up my own herdbook and keep the shorts in a pedigree collective!!
Dexters, as Duncan says, are dual purpose, breed out the milk at your peril, there are enough types within the breed to keep everyone happy, whats the problem?
Cross dexters with whatever you want, again whats the problem?
On an area group level our Leicestershire group have produced beef leaflets free to members to promote their beef, along with group meeting including beef and sales, our next meeting will be finishing and what to look for in the younger animal etc with a talk by an experienced dexter beef breeder. We try hard to put education into our meetings for the benefit of the novice within our group.
Beef workshops have been held by the society recently ( hosted by Mike and Sue Bancroft) but they need to go "on the road" to the different regions. Maybe more input and help from the DCS is needed but area groups can do their bit. Those members that arent in a local group dont know what they are missing, but you have to put your self out,no one can send you a book on how to do dexter beef.
Mark

[Rob & Alison Kirk]

I agree wholeheartedly with Duncan's views. However, if the breed is now established to cater for commercial crossing, my only concern is that prices for crossbred beef would be greatly reduced compared with pure Dexter beef, if you look at today's deadweight market prices. I doubt if you would be able to sell through Rare Breeds as they require animals to be registered with their relevant Society.

In my opinion you would need some 20 plus cows to be a profitable crossbred unit. Where would this leave the smaller breeder with only 2 or 3 cows? There is no way they would keep a bull all year round.

At a recent Midland Group meeting, commercial breeding was discussed. The view of the members was 100% in favour of staying pure. We all know the profitability with pure Dexter beef, it is up to those breeders who wish to go commercial to show how profitable their enterprises would be.

Robert Kirk

[groubearfarm]

I also agree with Duncan that the versitility of the Dexter is its strength. The breeders of the last twenty years have promoted the breed largely though agricultural shows and that has given us the healthy numbers of both cattle and owners which we have today. That is our heritage. Looking to the future, people want the excellent quality beef which we produce and although dairy is not such a fashional choice today who can say what the future might hold. We have hardy animals which are efficient at converting fodder to meat/milk, who don't damage the ground as a bigger animal would and are easy to manage. We should be aiming to include all those who love the Dexter for what ever reason. (and we are a pretty asorted bunch!!) I think we have a wide cross section of members who want different things from their cattle and the society. We wont please all but we can each do our best to reach as many as possible.

[Duncan MacIntyre]

To address Mark's point on what is to become of his short legged ladies if the call for a ban on BDN1-C cattle takes off, I would say that although I have no wish to spearhead such a drive, for the last 10m years or more I have tried in a small way to prepare the DCS and its members for such a scenario. At a meeting many years ago in Stoneleigh, called to discuss the bulldog issue when it became apparent that through genetic research we would identify the cause of the problem, I suggested that at some point in the future we would perhaps have to consider a ban on the registering of carrier bulls. The substitution of non carrier bulls would at best replace the carrier to carrier matings which would result in 25% bulldogs, 25% long legs and 50% short legs with 50% long and 50% short legs - ie there would be no reduction in the number of short legged females born for breeders who wanted to retain their short legged cows, and every potential bulldog would be replaced by a useful non carrier or long-legged calf. The only real loss would be the showing of short legged bulls, and as bulls are only a small part of the show scene this may be a price worth paying as a compromise between doing nothing and a complete ban on carrier animals. Such a move would go a long way to address the very real issue of prejudice against a lethal defect and total change for the Dexter as traditionally accepted by breeders.

Duncan

[Martin]

Although being the person who's posts have caused some of the reaction on this topic, I am still not convinced that some do not grasp what I have been saying. It has been admitted by some that beef is the main reason most Dexters are kept but they still do not think that the society will not have a problem in years to come!
If it is correct when others state that there is something for everyone within the breed then we must show it, not make it hard to find. My first port of call when I decided that I wanted a more beefy bull was to look on this site, after all it does state 'Dexter Cattle For Sale'. At the moment there are 16 bulls for sale and only two with pictures and one that states 'picture to follow' as the saying goes 'a picture paints a thousand words'. This is no reflection on Mark and his son who do a magnificent job.
My problem for this year is solved (thank you Di) but I must now start looking for a bull for the future. As Duncan said in his post of Feb 12, those that want to keep their Dexters pure have nothing to fear from a crossing program and indeed may even benifit. I will look at all options open to me and will look at Dexter, AA, Sussex and Welsh Black to name a few as a terminal sire. My cows for now will remain pure, I say for now as circumstances change and systems evolve, who knows what tomorro will bring. Whatever way I decide to go I remain convinced that the Dexter cow will be the basis of my herd for years to come.
Martin

[Woodmagic]

Mark, as someone who has been singing from the same song sheet for a very long time, I would be completely against banning all short legs. Not registering short leg bulls is a very different thing, and will not reduce the number of short leg animals born, but simply exchange all potential bulldog calves for live long legs. Whatever your breeding policy, this must be an advantage.
I would argue that breeding to the carrier ‘short leg’ reduces one chances of securing your long term breeding aims, since your best cows have a nasty habit of producing calves of the wrong shape, which then have to be discarded in order to retain a ‘short leg’ herd, but that is a different issue.
What is certain is, there are many owners of delightful ‘short leg’ cows who would certainly not contemplate culling them for some whim of the Society, or accepting the non registration of their equally delightful ‘short leg’ daughters. If as I believe is possible, we can select for animals that are short leg, but not carriers, I think a change will gradually transpire which will keep everybody happy and make sense.

[Martin]

Sorry for the hasty post, the first paragaph should say that 'I am still conviced', and not as it reads.

[Woodmagic]

Any dual-purpose breed suffers from what I would call the Hereford-Holstein syndrome; the animal may look beefy, but offspring can take after the dairy parent, if it is a mixed breeder, and not a true dual-purpose. ‘A picture may paint a thousand words’, but relying on the look of a bull to ascertain his potential as a beef sire could prove deceptive. The bull that has proved himself in his offspring is one certainty, and today DNA credentials will become increasingly important, and is something that the Society should be taking on board.
It also needs to be remembered that both parents are required to provide the beef, hence the reluctance of many buyers when faced with a Jersey-Angus. Since you have such faith in the female, Martin, why not trust the Dexter, and repeat the experiment next year, using a Dexter bull.

[Rob & Alison Kirk]

I agree with Mark. What would happen to the shortleg male or female if the dwarf gene is removed or banned? I do not think the word 'dwarf' is a fair reflection of our modern day short leg Dexters, but that is another avenue.

We are very fortunate to have two types in our breed, they compliment each other. Being responsible breeders we should all know how to keep the bulldog gene at bay.

There is no earthly reason to mate short to short when we have non-short bulls in the breed, so I do not believe there is a huge problem today. It would be a detrimental step backwards if we were not allowed/able to use short bulls in our national herd.

For some years now, we have used short bulls on non-short cows and vice versa, with no bulldog calves being born. Neighbours, fellow breeders and visitors all say what a uniform herd we have. I am sure that this down to the use of short and non-short bulls within the herd, keeping things in proportion. It would be a very sad day indeed if we did not see short Dexter bulls in the show ring.

Some of our best beef carcasses come from a short bull onto non-short cows. It is my view that short bulls have more to offer than just being described as 'bulldog carriers.'



Robert Kirk

[Inger]

But what is the point of persevering with the short legged carriers when you can simply breed short-legged non-carriers? ???

Because Chondrodysplasia camoflages an animal's true genetic make-up, you could be breeding genotypically tall cattle (as I have discovered from my short-legged carrier bull) from a phenotypically short bull. It makes far more sense to breed from genotypically short cattle which are non-carriers. You can still have the small height, with none of the draw-backs. And don't say that its not possible to do this, because I've got two such cows in my paddocks and I know of many other breeders with similar stock. They also have non-carrier bulls which fit within the breed standard of 40 - 42 inches high.