Dexters and Beef - Where do we go from here

[Broomcroft]

Hello

The Society doesn't have a brief to promote or even consider beef. Here is the Objective of the organisation taken from the Annual Return:

"For the benefit of the public to ensure the preservation of the breed having characteristics worthy of preservation in the interests of research and education to ensure the preservation of genes of special or potential value; and to conduct, carry out and promote research within all areas of the Society’s interest to increase knowledge and to publish the results of such research."

If you think the English is odd, don't blame me. Whoever wrote it (no offense meant) certainly doesn't like commas and full stops. Beef doesn't come into it, which is something I missed when I joined, unless you categorise the last general bit as maybe including beef (or milk)?

Clive

[Woodmagic]

We are a charity and have to ensure we come within that remit, however I would have thought that covered both genes for milk and beef

[Sylvia]

Maybe the author was a lawyer ??? Had I read the Society's objectives before joining I would not have bothered. Nothing concerning welfare or promotion, not a breed society more a scientific research body.

[Duncan MacIntyre]

I don't know where the above objectives have come from, or who wrote it, but it is not the same as the Objects of the Society as printed in the 2005 herd book. I am at work at moment and do not have a herd book with me but I have reviewed changes in the printed objectives over the last 30 years as I was suggesting that perhaps council would benefit, as would we all, from reviewing them and making any necessary changes. The objectives as stated in the herd book certainly would include beef matters.

Perhaps we would do well to remember that it is only in the last few years that there are enough dexters and enough large herds about to make any meaningful recording and comparisons of beef figures possible. Change may at times seem slow, but we also need to be mindful that all those on Council are unpaid volunteers and do give up considerable amounts of their time. If we are suggesting more complicated work on the beef recording side then we need to be prepared to provide the necessary input, for someone either to do the collating of figures on a voluntary basis, or we need to pay someone to do it.

So let us look forward to change, to improvements, and new schemes, but we must be prepared to do some of the work ourselves as we are the Society.

Duncan

[Woodmagic]

The Herd Book blurb reads as follows: ‘To advance the education of the public at large by registering, monitoring and exhibiting Dexter Cattle and investigating and encouraging efficient breeding of the Dexter Cattle with a view to improving and increasing the numbers of the breed.’ The charity aspect cannot be ignored; it is for the cattle not the membership.
I endorse a lot of what Duncan says, I have for years emphasised on Council that we need to keep an eye on the beef, but the old evaluations were open to compromise, now that we are starting to have reliable DNA tests I think we should be using them, numbers are not so important, since one is not working on averages. I am making enquiries and hoped to put something up to Council, but it will be necessary to have co-operation from members to submit animals for testing. Council can make decisions on policy, but it is up to the membership to carry them through.

[Broomcroft]

Firstly, sincere apologies, I wasn't complaining about not realising beef wasn't in the Objectives before I joined (but it does read like that), I was merely quoting chapter and verse without meaning anything untoward or having a side-swipe at anyone except myself. In fact, it clears things up for me in that I was expecting something that is not in the "constitution", which is unreasonable of me and others.

The Objectives were obtained from Companies House from the online copy of the Annual Return (for 2006 I think, or 2005).

IMPORTANT:

I think that what is being said by at least one remark in a reply, is that because the society is a charity, it can't really be involved in promoting beef, because inherently it is going to be commercial. So unless I'm misreading the situation, beef producers should not expect anything from the society of any commercial nature? Which is pretty fundamental.

This does not prevent discussion of course, but nothing is going to come of it directly. Please let me know if you think I'm wrong and that the society ought to be promoting beef even though it is a charity.

Just so I don't come across as a completely ignorant and commercially driven person, which I am not (in my opinion), I would like to say that it is very much down to all the dedicated people who have worked hard in the society for decades, that have enabled the breed to get where it is today. If I may be so bold, they should be very proud.

I think a few hackles have been raised in this topic because it is very frustrating, or has been, to try and get anywhere with beef, and I know I speak for a lot of people. But this would really explain why, and that's fine, we can now move on with plan B, whatever that is.

Clive

[Peter thornton]

I think the Beef aspect is, obliquely, covered in the part about preserving the breed. Given that hardly anyone keeps Dexters as a dairy cow then without the Beef we would be keeping pets.

I've seen a slogan somewhere that goes:
"Eat rare breeds to preserve them" or something like that.

[Minnie]

Hi Sylvia,

Where we bought the alpacas, the people were also Dexter breeders.

Funnily enough we've notice quite a few alpaca people run Dexters for just the reasons you outlined, they are good at keeping everything down, unlike the alpacas.

Regards

Vicki

[Broomcroft]

Peter

Yes, I agree that it could be argued that beef is covered by the sentence you mention, but it has to be commercial from a beef producers point of view which cuts out the society from being involved, at least hands-on or financially.

The charity status presumably goes back to the days of saving the breed, but that has been done, has it not? So now you're left with what perhaps ought not to be a charity. A charity is an organisation that helps something or some people in distress, isn't it? I don't think Dexters are in distress. Not mine anyhow, they're eating me out off house and home and start mooing at me when the ring-feeder's only half full!

Clive

[Martin]

Peter,
It would seem that the ones that need to get real are the ones that are ok with the status quo. My worry is that if we do not encourage larger herds of Dexters we could see the end of the breed. Without people like the Kirks, Di Smith and Beryl Rutherford producing good stock and being big enough to do worthwhile work where will the bulls come from? If the Dexter is promoted as something that is only good for the back garden and no decent sized herds are established it will die out. How many people with 2 or three cows run a bull or could run a bull? Do we know of any new herd of a decent size being established?
When I went into sheep many years ago I was told 'the ram is half the flock', I paid more for a ram 20 odd years ago than most Dexter bulls are advertised for on this site today, and my rams where nothing special. I could have bought for much more and had figures about birth weight and weights at different ages back then. My point being that we have been left behind and I feel we must do something before it is too late.
Please don't think that I want to change the Dexter from the wonderfull cows I have now. It is what goes for slaughter that I think must change. There are always going to be people on both sides of this argument, what we must do is realise that both sides have the best interests of the breed at heart, disscuss and find ways forward to address these issues.
We are and probably will remain a minority breed, what we must be carefull of is the fact that it would only take a few of the big herds to dissapear and life would become harder for people to source bulls for hire and good bulls to purchase. There have already been posts about difficulties in finding bulls for hire and long distances travelled to collect and return hired bulls, unless you have a hard core of Dexter keepers in your area this will only get worse. AI is ok for some but not an option for others, there is no one on my farm from 7am until 6pm and I'm sure there are more like me.
Martin.

[Woodmagic]

I think this discussion is proving very productive, we are getting different views and working through them, we need them to come from all quarters and then work out a good compromise.
I agree very much with Peter, we may have expanded quite a lot in the last few years, but numbers are still miniscule compared with the established breeds, the latest economic climate may well cut us down further. It was possible to balance the higher overheads against a smaller animal with a full size subsidy, but headage subsidies are disappearing, and the welter of official paper work discourages the small breeder.
Charity rules insist on a public benefit requirement; history proves that has not been too onerous to allow for rapid expansion. To contemplate leaving the shelter of charity status would be a very risky proposition financially. We simply need to give priority to breeding good Dexters and telling the public about them.
If we concentrate on breeding bulls from our best cows, we are not going to suffer a shortage, recently we had an embarrassment of them. I am worried that the present emphasis on the bull’s appearance as against its dam’s performance may not give us as many good ones as need.
You cant encourage large herds Martin, most will start like you with two or three, many will fade out after a short time, a few like Di and myself become hooked for life and the herd ‘grows’ when you are not looking. Many of the herds starting big only last a few years, the biggest have often grown from small beginnings.

[richmonds dun dexters]

hi there beryl lets hope for us all that there is a long and prosperous future in keeping dexters, we never realised how much enjoyment you can get out of keeping these small cows. what do people class as lagre herds i no with other breeds you would be looking at hundreds. also are there any largish dun herds about as thats what were concentrating on breeding. :D

[Martin]

Beryl,
Its nice to know that someone with your experience and logevity with the breed can see my point of view and can still look outward and to the future.
The charity status thing is something else that we must consider, especially if it is holding vital research back. Costings have to be done to see exactly what benifit we recieve for being a charity, and what the position would be if we gave that status up.
The biggest hurdle for me growing my herd is that because of where I am any land that becomes vacant is actively persued by people that have horses. I have no personal problem with that exept it hikes the price of land out of my reach. I know of a 13 acre field that is rented out for more than £250 per acre per year, the same field was sold at the end of last year to a speculative builder to landbank for a price in excess of £8000 per acre. I can't compete with either of those figures and can only hope that I win the lottery or something to enable me to have the large herd that at the moment I can only dream of. I'm happy with my lot though, I have a good wife two grown up daughters,(who both work in the family business) a grandchild and one on the way, and when I need to chill out I can go and sit with my cows and tell them all about it.
Martin.

[happy hollidays]

Hey Martin, when you win the lottery think of us. Land here goes at £30k an acre and thats just for grazing-no development. Our hands are really tied with expanding our herd as we do not have the additional facilites. This does not mean that we do not wish to learn about large herd dexter farming. I think that the society should be as diverse as the people who are its members. It needs to change with the times, as new comers I wonder why so many other smallhollders get rid of their cows so quickly ? I look after our animals practically single handedly, first tb testing on my own, AI on my own etc as my husband is at work during the week from early til late. Not once do I think I am out of my depth, even though they are a lot bigger than me, I am most definately in charge (try to show it to them anyway!!!!). We would love to turn this hobby into a profit making business, perhaps when we retire .....The more communication there is between us all, the stronger we will become and perhaps less first timers will drop out. Take care in the ice tomorrow.

[Kathy Millar]

Well, I had to have a look at the Canadian Dexter Society's objectives and they seem pretty comprehensive. For eg. " To promote and conduct research for the betterment of Dexter Cattle in Canada by Association members and others. To collect and disseminate information with respect to breeding, history, development, and marketing of Dexter Cattle. " And lastly, "Without limiting the generality of the foregoing, to work for the general good and advancement of Dexter Cattle and the breeders and owners thereof." I think this would include beef, no?

To that end, some breeders submit their steers to a college program at Olds College in Alberta, called "Steer-a-Year". Unfortunatley they were sometimes cross-breds and they were given hormones so not applicable to a "healthy" finishing system. However, I understand that this year the college has agreed not to implant the Dexters with hormones so it should be interesting.

Re: charity status. What does that mean? Here in Canada, our breed organizations are registered non-profit societies but they certainly engage in meat marketing strategies and promotions. I mean, isn't that one of the main reasons breed societies exist? To promote their breed for both breeding and meat (where applicable!)? I don't understand what the problem is.