Dexters and Beef - Where do we go from here
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happy hollidays
- Posts: 221
- Joined: Sat Sep 02, 2006 11:07 am
- Location: Surrey/Kent borders
One of the reasons I love this site is because people will put their view point across. I think we should admire those who go against the grain rather than condemn them. However, I would point out that we should try to treat others as we ourselves would expect to be treated, no matter how angry we are feeling. We are living in a democratic country and so should this society remain democratic. I feel that I could go on for hours but I've got ironing to do.....
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wagra dexters
- Posts: 591
- Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2005 11:49 am
- Location: Australia
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Wish someone would do mine. I've got a stack of non-carrier small cows to play with.
Graham Beever & Margaret Weir
http://www.wagra-dexter.com.au/
http://www.wagra-dexter.com.au/
Adrian,
This is one of the wonderful benefits we noticed with our dexters.
In fact we were told that alpacas are as gentle on the land as kangaroos, well I can say that our 4 alpacas have done more damage than our 2 dexters, we see no sign on our steep paddock nor around our dam.
A local cattle breeder (brahman) says the feedlots are the way to go and the big breeds do better in them. I can't see it myself, isn't that how all these terrible diseases got a hold, stuffing too many animals into unnatural feedlots and stuffing them with unnatural foods?
The dexters time is coming in my opinion, when more people want an entire cut not a third of a giant steak, and one that has lived a natural life (as things should) and the meat is tasty.
I researched for nearly three years to find what I believed the best of the small breeds and read so much about the dexter. The smaller size is the whole reason we wanted dexter cattle and although only new to the dexter world we love them and their small statue!
Regards
Vicki
This is one of the wonderful benefits we noticed with our dexters.
In fact we were told that alpacas are as gentle on the land as kangaroos, well I can say that our 4 alpacas have done more damage than our 2 dexters, we see no sign on our steep paddock nor around our dam.
A local cattle breeder (brahman) says the feedlots are the way to go and the big breeds do better in them. I can't see it myself, isn't that how all these terrible diseases got a hold, stuffing too many animals into unnatural feedlots and stuffing them with unnatural foods?
The dexters time is coming in my opinion, when more people want an entire cut not a third of a giant steak, and one that has lived a natural life (as things should) and the meat is tasty.
I researched for nearly three years to find what I believed the best of the small breeds and read so much about the dexter. The smaller size is the whole reason we wanted dexter cattle and although only new to the dexter world we love them and their small statue!
Regards
Vicki
I use Photobucket Sylvia.
I don't see the need to breed taller Dexters as, because they have shorter legs than most other breeds, there is a higher bone-out ratio and less wastage. They're the right size for families to put a beast in their freezer. That's their niche market.
If you want to grow commercial beef, then sure, go for the big continental breeds. Dexters are for the steep, infertile land that the big continental breeds don't do well on. Traditionally, Dexters were run in rough country where other breeds struggled. That's their market niche. Meat and milk for the family. It doesn't hurt that they taste really good as well. :D
I don't see the need to breed taller Dexters as, because they have shorter legs than most other breeds, there is a higher bone-out ratio and less wastage. They're the right size for families to put a beast in their freezer. That's their niche market.
If you want to grow commercial beef, then sure, go for the big continental breeds. Dexters are for the steep, infertile land that the big continental breeds don't do well on. Traditionally, Dexters were run in rough country where other breeds struggled. That's their market niche. Meat and milk for the family. It doesn't hurt that they taste really good as well. :D
Inger
NZ
NZ
I am glad I started this subject; we are getting some very useful contributions. However, I can’t allow the suggestion that non-carriers can turn into bags of bones pass. It is the breeder not the type that is at fault.
In the case of short leg breeding it has to be borne in mind that the carcase is hung on a skeleton smaller than nature intended. When you take that same carcass and stretch it onto the bigger frame it won’t look so beefy. If the short leg breeder takes his eye off the ball, and neglects to look at the animals without the bulldog gene, in order to see what he is really breeding, he may well slide out of beef without realising it.
There are many breeders today breeding good beef from non carrier cows, more abroad than in this country, but we are catching up, I appreciated those fine pictures, Inger. Once you eradicate the bulldog gene, you can go ahead and actually select, just as you can with any other breed.
In the case of short leg breeding it has to be borne in mind that the carcase is hung on a skeleton smaller than nature intended. When you take that same carcass and stretch it onto the bigger frame it won’t look so beefy. If the short leg breeder takes his eye off the ball, and neglects to look at the animals without the bulldog gene, in order to see what he is really breeding, he may well slide out of beef without realising it.
There are many breeders today breeding good beef from non carrier cows, more abroad than in this country, but we are catching up, I appreciated those fine pictures, Inger. Once you eradicate the bulldog gene, you can go ahead and actually select, just as you can with any other breed.
Vicki, I'm amazed that your 4 alpacas have done more damage than your 2 Dexters. I would support the view that alpacas 'tread lightly on this earth'. Our Dexters, numbering around 60, have to stay in during the winter (we live in often wet Wales). Our attempt to leave a small group out ended very suddenly in the autumn due to pasture damage. The alpacas go out all year and come in at night during the winter. Forty girls running through a gateway twice a day has caused very slight poaching, the rest of the field is untouched, likewise the alpaca lads have made no impact whatsoever on their fields. We would love to leave the Dexters out too but it is impossible.
I am sorry if you thought my comments where insulting Sylvia as they where not meant to be, I am not a nasty peson and do listen to others opinion and respect their views.
To answer a few questions raised I will say the following, the short steer within my herd at this time was the result of the purchase of an in calf cow. I do not wish to rear huge continental type cows or steers but wish to make the most of what my cows have to offer. I will not be putting huge bulls on my cows. I too can remember trying to calve cows put to charolais bulls and do not wish to experience it again. It is not just Dexters that have improved over the years, other breeds have made huge progress (and shout about it) when it comes to recording ease of calving, milkiness, weights at certain ages, beef value, tastiness of that beef and loads more. Where is all this information on Dexters? At most breed sales today bulls have a value put on them for different traits as above which is expressed as units above the breed average. If we as a society wish to carry the breed forward then this is what we must do, we cannot just sit back and be 'purist' and breed what has always been bred. I am not saying that we should dilute what gives the Dexter its appeal, as there will always be those that only want to keep a couple and would always choose Dexter but we must improve and modernise. My herd is only small, I have seven due to calve in March, and it looks like I may have another two heifers that will be good enough to go to the bull this year. I am hopefull that more land will become available to me and allow my herd to expand. I wish my herd was bigger now to enable me to try different methods and bulls within the same year, my problem is that I can only run one bull at a time, which means progress would be slow. If anyone has a nice beefy Dexter bull, and he is either for sale or hire, please let me know (no shorts please).
I have nothing against the 'purists' amongst us as without them much would have been lost. To the 'if it ain't broke don't fix it' comment I will say that I live in a house with all mod cons and drive a nice modern vehicle and use a mobile phone and a computer, if it wasn't broke we would have none of these and women would still be using wash boards and we would all still be driving model T fords.
Margaret, yes there is a glut of females in the UK, loads for sale on this site and privately. Most heifers that are surplus to requirements are sent for meat, most heifers are worth more this way.
My final comment (at this time) is that as I have said before, the Dexter society has a huge problem trying to keep all its members happy, as there are so many different types of people keeping from one or two cows to more that a hundred, from hobby to commercial, its a big family to try to keep together. I do not mind being the one that gets the flack for upsetting the status quo, or being devils advocate, someone has to, as in my veiw we must modernise and look outward a bit more than has been done in the past. I am not advocating the end of the society or the breed, its just that we must give our Dexters more fors than against when it comes to people looking to keep cows for all reasons, not just that they look nice and taste wonderfull (although impotant none the less).
Martin.
To answer a few questions raised I will say the following, the short steer within my herd at this time was the result of the purchase of an in calf cow. I do not wish to rear huge continental type cows or steers but wish to make the most of what my cows have to offer. I will not be putting huge bulls on my cows. I too can remember trying to calve cows put to charolais bulls and do not wish to experience it again. It is not just Dexters that have improved over the years, other breeds have made huge progress (and shout about it) when it comes to recording ease of calving, milkiness, weights at certain ages, beef value, tastiness of that beef and loads more. Where is all this information on Dexters? At most breed sales today bulls have a value put on them for different traits as above which is expressed as units above the breed average. If we as a society wish to carry the breed forward then this is what we must do, we cannot just sit back and be 'purist' and breed what has always been bred. I am not saying that we should dilute what gives the Dexter its appeal, as there will always be those that only want to keep a couple and would always choose Dexter but we must improve and modernise. My herd is only small, I have seven due to calve in March, and it looks like I may have another two heifers that will be good enough to go to the bull this year. I am hopefull that more land will become available to me and allow my herd to expand. I wish my herd was bigger now to enable me to try different methods and bulls within the same year, my problem is that I can only run one bull at a time, which means progress would be slow. If anyone has a nice beefy Dexter bull, and he is either for sale or hire, please let me know (no shorts please).
I have nothing against the 'purists' amongst us as without them much would have been lost. To the 'if it ain't broke don't fix it' comment I will say that I live in a house with all mod cons and drive a nice modern vehicle and use a mobile phone and a computer, if it wasn't broke we would have none of these and women would still be using wash boards and we would all still be driving model T fords.
Margaret, yes there is a glut of females in the UK, loads for sale on this site and privately. Most heifers that are surplus to requirements are sent for meat, most heifers are worth more this way.
My final comment (at this time) is that as I have said before, the Dexter society has a huge problem trying to keep all its members happy, as there are so many different types of people keeping from one or two cows to more that a hundred, from hobby to commercial, its a big family to try to keep together. I do not mind being the one that gets the flack for upsetting the status quo, or being devils advocate, someone has to, as in my veiw we must modernise and look outward a bit more than has been done in the past. I am not advocating the end of the society or the breed, its just that we must give our Dexters more fors than against when it comes to people looking to keep cows for all reasons, not just that they look nice and taste wonderfull (although impotant none the less).
Martin.
Martin.
Maidstone
Kent
Maidstone
Kent
That's good in theory Martin, but the problem is that given a certain sized frame, there is a biological limit to how much meat you can hang off it without causing problems (take what happened to the Belgian Blues for example).
If one was to stick to the breed guidelines regarding height, there is an optimum weight of beef that an animal of that size can carry during their growing years, without doing damage to their bone structure and feet. I've heard a judge say that an overly weighty calf can put too much strain on the bone structure, which damages them for life. There's an optimum growth rate that they can achieve, which keeps pace with their skeletal development.
In NZ, some of we breeders have been keeping statistics on the growth rates of the offspring from each bull. These is to try and develop EBVs for Dexter bulls, so that we can say to dairy farmers that this particular bull produces offspring with an average birthweight of X amount and an average growth rate of Y amount. Without these statistics its hard to be taken seriously.
I've compared the growth rates of our grade 3 Dexter calves with the growth rates of friends of mine who breed Angus (the traditional type) and Murray Greys. Some of our calves are keeping pace with these other breeds quite respectably at a growth rate of over a kilogram per day on their mother's milk and grass (of fairly average quality) and no other supplements. I'm fairly happy with that, as it means that Dexter owners needn't that their stock will only ever be runners-up to the bigger breeds. Our yearlings certainly bring a good price at the salesyards in the Spring. The buyers take one look at how quiet they are and don't mind bidding for a high price.
I think with a bit of record keeping and careful selection of the genetics that are already within the Dexter breed, its quite possible to optimise the amount of beef being grown on our young stock. But there is a physical limit as to what we should expect that ready-for-slaughter weight to be, considering the frame that the muscle has to hang from. Where we lose in total body weight, we gain in the bone-out rate. The lower wastage must count for something when advertising a Dexter's advantages.
Plus the fact that many of our animals probably carry the tenderness gene that butchers are so eager for. There is a new genetic test afoot, which can prove that your animals have this gene. This could be the start of a whole new market.
If one was to stick to the breed guidelines regarding height, there is an optimum weight of beef that an animal of that size can carry during their growing years, without doing damage to their bone structure and feet. I've heard a judge say that an overly weighty calf can put too much strain on the bone structure, which damages them for life. There's an optimum growth rate that they can achieve, which keeps pace with their skeletal development.
In NZ, some of we breeders have been keeping statistics on the growth rates of the offspring from each bull. These is to try and develop EBVs for Dexter bulls, so that we can say to dairy farmers that this particular bull produces offspring with an average birthweight of X amount and an average growth rate of Y amount. Without these statistics its hard to be taken seriously.
I've compared the growth rates of our grade 3 Dexter calves with the growth rates of friends of mine who breed Angus (the traditional type) and Murray Greys. Some of our calves are keeping pace with these other breeds quite respectably at a growth rate of over a kilogram per day on their mother's milk and grass (of fairly average quality) and no other supplements. I'm fairly happy with that, as it means that Dexter owners needn't that their stock will only ever be runners-up to the bigger breeds. Our yearlings certainly bring a good price at the salesyards in the Spring. The buyers take one look at how quiet they are and don't mind bidding for a high price.
I think with a bit of record keeping and careful selection of the genetics that are already within the Dexter breed, its quite possible to optimise the amount of beef being grown on our young stock. But there is a physical limit as to what we should expect that ready-for-slaughter weight to be, considering the frame that the muscle has to hang from. Where we lose in total body weight, we gain in the bone-out rate. The lower wastage must count for something when advertising a Dexter's advantages.
Plus the fact that many of our animals probably carry the tenderness gene that butchers are so eager for. There is a new genetic test afoot, which can prove that your animals have this gene. This could be the start of a whole new market.
Inger
NZ
NZ
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Rob & Alison Kirk
- Posts: 86
- Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2005 8:59 pm
Martin: Thank you for a detailed reply. You must remember that the so called purists have taken the breed to where it is today. Although I do not look upon myself as a purist, I am someone who is very pationate about the breed and one of a number of breeders who have taken the Dexter forward when it comes to producing superbly flavoured, well marbled beef for a niche market.
My advice to you would be to keep a Dexter bull with your cows, but to look at A1 on some of them, using a traditional breed, ie Red Poll or Beef Shorthorn, etc. Put a trial together with the involvement of the Society. You must have a Field Officer in your area and keep us informed on the web site. What a good article this would make for the Bulletin during the next 24/36 months as to the progress you are making and the eventual sale of the beef.
I wish you all the best.
Robert Kirk
My advice to you would be to keep a Dexter bull with your cows, but to look at A1 on some of them, using a traditional breed, ie Red Poll or Beef Shorthorn, etc. Put a trial together with the involvement of the Society. You must have a Field Officer in your area and keep us informed on the web site. What a good article this would make for the Bulletin during the next 24/36 months as to the progress you are making and the eventual sale of the beef.
I wish you all the best.
Robert Kirk
Hi Sylvia,
I should clarify, it's not the feet but the dustbaths that decimate great clumps of pasture.
And although their 'poo piles' are very nice to have in one spot, even to pick up each day they leave quite a large bare spot and do like more than one spot over time.
Mind you we love them, and can run them through the house yard without very much fencing as they don't walk through certain things like the gate and archway into the house that the cows would.
Our land is very steep and many a person has brought in cattle in the past apparently (so says neighbour who's been here for 50+ years) and they die as they can't cope with the steep dry land.
Our Dexters when let out into the steep paddock raced up and down the hill without any ill effects whatsoever, they really are comical little cows with their antics
The alpacas are lovely but if the grass gets too long they won't eat it down either so that's another plus for the dexter.
Vicki
I should clarify, it's not the feet but the dustbaths that decimate great clumps of pasture.
And although their 'poo piles' are very nice to have in one spot, even to pick up each day they leave quite a large bare spot and do like more than one spot over time.
Mind you we love them, and can run them through the house yard without very much fencing as they don't walk through certain things like the gate and archway into the house that the cows would.
Our land is very steep and many a person has brought in cattle in the past apparently (so says neighbour who's been here for 50+ years) and they die as they can't cope with the steep dry land.
Our Dexters when let out into the steep paddock raced up and down the hill without any ill effects whatsoever, they really are comical little cows with their antics
The alpacas are lovely but if the grass gets too long they won't eat it down either so that's another plus for the dexter.
Vicki
Hi Robert,
I certainly have no 'beef' with the purists amongst us, and I certainly appreciate what has been achived with the breed from such small numbers in what is only a few years ago! I just believe that we must start recording as Inger has said to prove our point. We must have these figures to persuade people that the Dexter is not just a back garden and smallholder cow and can compete commercially when compared to other breeds. As you know, there are few beef herds that are commercially bred pure, we can all see evidence of this as we travel through the countryside. How many Dexter bulls do you know of that are run with crossed cows? How many other bulls are run with Dexter or part Dexter cows? I feel as a breed society we are missing out on what could be a better future for us unless we at least look at the options available. Would't it be good if cows for sale on this site did not hang around for six months before being sold or withdrawn, there aways seems to be a herd dispersal also, which makes me wonder why, and some of the prices are so poor. A little while ago there was a dispersal on this site with cows (not aged) in calf with a calf at foot for I believe £350, I wish I had more land available as the steer calf at foot would fetch more than that in a short while.
After my post of yesterday Di Smith has been in touch and Moomin Apollo should be available when my cows are bulling this year, he is apparently very beefy and docile, how can I resist, so it looks like my herd will remain pure for at least another season with the benifit of a good bloodline added to the my herd.
Martin (Medway Valley Dexters, Kent)
I certainly have no 'beef' with the purists amongst us, and I certainly appreciate what has been achived with the breed from such small numbers in what is only a few years ago! I just believe that we must start recording as Inger has said to prove our point. We must have these figures to persuade people that the Dexter is not just a back garden and smallholder cow and can compete commercially when compared to other breeds. As you know, there are few beef herds that are commercially bred pure, we can all see evidence of this as we travel through the countryside. How many Dexter bulls do you know of that are run with crossed cows? How many other bulls are run with Dexter or part Dexter cows? I feel as a breed society we are missing out on what could be a better future for us unless we at least look at the options available. Would't it be good if cows for sale on this site did not hang around for six months before being sold or withdrawn, there aways seems to be a herd dispersal also, which makes me wonder why, and some of the prices are so poor. A little while ago there was a dispersal on this site with cows (not aged) in calf with a calf at foot for I believe £350, I wish I had more land available as the steer calf at foot would fetch more than that in a short while.
After my post of yesterday Di Smith has been in touch and Moomin Apollo should be available when my cows are bulling this year, he is apparently very beefy and docile, how can I resist, so it looks like my herd will remain pure for at least another season with the benifit of a good bloodline added to the my herd.
Martin (Medway Valley Dexters, Kent)
Martin.
Maidstone
Kent
Maidstone
Kent
Apologies, Vicki, it is very difficult to remember that there are DRY places anywhere after the wet Autumn and Winter we have had. Thankfully it has been dry for the last week so at last we have been able to clean out the Dexter barn and spread the muck. Alpacas are a law unto themselves with grass - in our fields they will concentrate on certain areas grazing it down to a even carpet and totally ignore other parts of the field. So either topping or cross grazing is essential. A couple of my Dexters went to help out one of the biggest herds of alpacas in this country, you wouldn't have thought there would be a spare blade of grass given their stocking rate, but there was.
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Broomcroft
- Posts: 3005
- Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2006 4:42 am
- Location: Shropshire, England
- Contact:
Hello
Re: the Australian Limousin-Dexter that won the beef show.
I got a quick reply from Australia, it was very much an accident, young Limmy bull, young Dexter heifer, poor fence. The calf weighed 28kg, which is not that huge. But they said it was a difficult calving, so it may have been a big-framed 28kg?
PS. This is out of interest/information. I am not going to put a Limmy on my cows even if it did look good. Too much size difference apart from character traits as well.
Clive
Re: the Australian Limousin-Dexter that won the beef show.
I got a quick reply from Australia, it was very much an accident, young Limmy bull, young Dexter heifer, poor fence. The calf weighed 28kg, which is not that huge. But they said it was a difficult calving, so it may have been a big-framed 28kg?
PS. This is out of interest/information. I am not going to put a Limmy on my cows even if it did look good. Too much size difference apart from character traits as well.
Clive
Clive
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Kathy Millar
- Posts: 725
- Joined: Wed May 19, 2004 4:53 pm
- Location: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
I wasn't going to add my opinion, but here goes. This crossing discussion could apply to anything, especially sheep! Here in my area, the kill charge is so high that you lose quite a bit of your profit when you take in a small animal. It really shows up on my small Shetland sheep. However, I ended up charging about $6.50 per pound based on actual weight which is higher than any of the other beef being sold around here. My prices will be higher this year. If you have quality, then make sure you charge for it. I especially like the smaller cuts and so do my customers. I guess you could hack an angus into smaller cuts but I do wonder how much more feed a larger-framed animal would eat and would this be offset by the greater amount of meat?
I like the smaller animal for its softer impact on my pastures, eats less hay (which I feed for 8 months of the year) and is less intimidating. Marketing-wise, I can use its "uncommon" name and interesting history to "sell" the beef although I suspect that the lucky two people who got beef from me this year will not require any urging to buy more!
I like the smaller animal for its softer impact on my pastures, eats less hay (which I feed for 8 months of the year) and is less intimidating. Marketing-wise, I can use its "uncommon" name and interesting history to "sell" the beef although I suspect that the lucky two people who got beef from me this year will not require any urging to buy more!
Kathy
Home Farm, Vancouver Island, Canada
Home Farm, Vancouver Island, Canada
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Peter thornton
- Posts: 326
- Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2004 4:41 pm
Get real guys!
The Dexter is a great minority breed.
They are ideal for someone like myself with a few acres of fairly poor hill land. They live outside all winter and never give any trouble. At the end of it all I have enough friends and neighbours to dispose of 2 or 3 beasts per year.
But I can't drive an animal to our local auction mart with any expectation of a decent price.
All the other local farmers run Limousines and looking at their economics I can give them no reason at all to change to Dexters.
The easiest money I ever made was when I had a dead calf and replaced it with a Limmy cross. I sold that calf 10 months lates at our auction mart for £320.
I love my Dexters, they are great for what they are, but the end of headage subsidies have changed things for ever.
Unless someone can persuade Abattoirs/Butchers to charge by the pound rather than per head. And I won't hold my breath on that one!!
The Smallholders Cow. That's what a Dexter is, it's what it's always been and in my humble opinion it's what it always will be! And nothing at all wrong with that!
And now I'll give it a couple of days before starting a new thread with some positive ideas about what the DCS can do to help Dexter beef producers - which is about 99.999% of us!
The Dexter is a great minority breed.
They are ideal for someone like myself with a few acres of fairly poor hill land. They live outside all winter and never give any trouble. At the end of it all I have enough friends and neighbours to dispose of 2 or 3 beasts per year.
But I can't drive an animal to our local auction mart with any expectation of a decent price.
All the other local farmers run Limousines and looking at their economics I can give them no reason at all to change to Dexters.
The easiest money I ever made was when I had a dead calf and replaced it with a Limmy cross. I sold that calf 10 months lates at our auction mart for £320.
I love my Dexters, they are great for what they are, but the end of headage subsidies have changed things for ever.
Unless someone can persuade Abattoirs/Butchers to charge by the pound rather than per head. And I won't hold my breath on that one!!
The Smallholders Cow. That's what a Dexter is, it's what it's always been and in my humble opinion it's what it always will be! And nothing at all wrong with that!
And now I'll give it a couple of days before starting a new thread with some positive ideas about what the DCS can do to help Dexter beef producers - which is about 99.999% of us!