Overhieght in Dexters

[Jac]

This is the Dexter breed standard as published in herd book 1 - DCS.

A STANDARD DESCRIPTION OF THE
DEXTER.

1. The Dexter is essentially both a milk-producing and a beef
makng breed, and both these points should, in judging, he taken
Into consideration.
2. Colour.--Bulls.-Whole black or whole red (the two
colours being of equal merit). A little white on organs of genera-
tion not to disqualify an animal which answers all other essentials
of this standard description.
Cows.-Whole black or whole red (the two colours being of
equal merit). Black with white on the udder, or red with white
on bag. The extension of the white of the udder slightly along
the inside of flank or under side of the belly, or a little white on
end of tail, shall not be held to disqualify an animal which answers
all other essentials of this standard description. .
3. Head AND Neck.--Head short and broad, with great
'Width between the eyes, and tapering gracefully towards muzzle,
which should be large, with wide distended nostrils. Eyes bright,
prominent, and of a kind and placid expression.
Neck short, deep and thick, and well set into the shoulders,
which,when viewed in front, should be wide, showing thickness
through the heart, the breast coming well forward.
Horns.-These should be short and moderately thick, springing
well from the head, with an inward and slightly upward curve.
4. Body.--Shoulders of medium thickness, full and well filled
in behind, hips wide, quarters thick and deep and well sprung, flat
and wide across loins, well ribbed up, straight underline, udder
well forward, and broad behind with well placed teats of moderate
size, legs short (especially from knee to fetlock), strong, and well
placed under body, which should be as close to the ground as
possible. Tail well set on and level 'with back.
5. Skin.--The skin should be soft and mellow, and handle
well, not too thin, hair fine, plentiful and silky.
6. Dexter Bulls should not exceed 900 Lbs., live weight, when
in breeding condition.
Dexter Cows should not exceed 800 Lbs., live weight, when in
breeding condition.

It is very interesting that there is no mention of height limits only weights.

[Jac]

Depends whether you are killing them or keeping them for breeding. Short cows producing larger (ns) offspring do make more money for beef. In the same way a commercial cross does. I think it is this aspect that has kept the breed going. The A team and the B team.

..... In my experience the short breeders tend to be those who are breeding for breeding stock & showing, and those with the more commercial beef herd types are the ones using only non-shorts, and likely breeding from the larger non-shorts.

Surveys have been conducted regarding the importance of beef production to the membership and results have indicated overwhelmingly (apparently) that beef production is 'very important' to people. However despite this, as a percentage my observation is that very few are dedicated to producing beef in an official commercial capacity so keep a mixture of both types. I don't think the blame for height creep due to breeding the larger non-shorts can be laid solely at the door of commercial beef producers consider those who are reluctant to beef any female who put them in calf to a short bull hoping to get a short female to enter the A team.

[Rob R]

I don't think the blame for height creep due to breeding the larger non-shorts can be laid solely at the door of commercial beef producers...

Yes, that was the point I was making.

Predominately the commercial beef producers are looking for a consistent animal (whether that be consistently large or otherwise), which the shorts are not as they always produce a mixture of the two.

[Rob R]

Jac, in answer to your question on linear and heights.
When we were first in negotiations with Holstein UK (HUK) and on farm assessing the first animals it very quickly became apparent that we had to remove the stature score (height) from the assessment of the animal because of the distorted results it produced.
The stature score still shows on the linear printout as a record of the animals height and its conforming to the breed height standard but is not included within the actual calculation of the final scores.

Interesting. Thanks for that.

[JamsHundred]

Jac,

There was no height standard in Ireland either. I believe the first time height was introduced to the breed standard was the DCS herd book of 1992 and I think that was increased in 1998, and maybe yet again since that time. I have all the versions detailed in a word document but I cannot remember what I named it to locate it on the computer.

I think they understood and were wise to leave off the height in the standard and use weight. I do believe we should maintain the breed as it was founded. I do not know the English cattle market, but in the US the Dexter is not accepted nor can it survive in the mainstream of cattle. There has been so much emphasis on breeding for polled and for beef that the dairy traits have been all but lost. The meat market is only successful when the producer sells from the farm. So they are not workable for commercial beef or dairy and without a breed standard to maintain them as they were founded and that niche market promoted, the breed just cannot compete and will be at risk. It is difficult for those who are riding high on the wave of fad at the moment to recognize "this too shall pass" as the breed is being pulled too far from it's roots.

Judy

[solburydexters]

The point is made that the Breed Standard has been changed at various times.
In 2011/2012 due to allegations that the Breed Standard had been altered by a previous Council largly unbeknown to the majority of the members the then Council made the Breed Standard a Bye-Law of the Society. Approved by members at the 2012 AGM. I think Duncan was also on Council at the time of this discussion and decision being made.
The result of this is that it should not now be possible for the Breed Standard to be altered without the full knowledge and approval of the members at an AGM.
However please look at the differences in setting out the wording between the Breed Standard under Constitution on DCS website and under Breed Standard in the 2014 Herdbook, particularly under 'Body' and 'Size' an example of how things can get changed over time.
The discussion will no doubt go on about whether the present standard is right no doubt.

[Louisa Gidney]

To complement Judy's posting of the original Dexter breed standard, here's the contemporary standard for the Kerry, published in the 1918 English Kerry & Dexter Herd Book.
The Cow should be long, level and deep, her colour black, her head long and fine; her horns fine at base, mottled or white tipped with black, upright and cocked; her eye soft and prominent; her bone fine; her coat in summer like satin, in winter long and thick; her udder should be soft and large, but not fleshy, protruding well under the belly, the teats being placed square and well apart, the milk veins prominent and large; the tail should be well put on and have at the end long, fine, black hair. The Kerry Cow should not weigh over 900lbs, live weight, when in breeding condition.
The Bull should be whole black without a white hair; should have a long head, wide between the eyes, of masculine character, throat clean; horns medium length, mottled or white with black tips, turning backwards; withers fine, back straight from withers to setting on of tail, which should be long, fine, tipped with black hairs. The Kerry Bull should not weigh over 1,000lbs, live weight, when in breeding condition.

[Saffy]

It has been mentioned earlier in this thread about bulls from short cows coming within the breed standard for height. I would be interested to know if all bulls measured within the breed standard for height have stayed within the breed standard for height.

Does anyone know of a bull that has been measured but is now too big, or they strongly believe it is, or even a bull that hasn't been measured but they think or know is too big.

I have heard occasional mutterings from time to time but people tend to shy away from actual info, maybe for fear of showing themselves up as incorrect?

I'm not asking for a specific bull or bulls here, so no need for finger pointing, just asking if and maybe how much it happens?

PM me if you would rather but as I say I'm not wanting to tread on toes just find out generally.

Stephanie

[Jac]

It has been mentioned earlier in this thread about bulls from short cows coming within the breed standard for height. I would be interested to know if all bulls measured within the breed standard for height have stayed within the breed standard for height.

Does anyone know of a bull that has been measured but is now too big, or they strongly believe it is, or even a bull that hasn't been measured but they think or know is too big.

I have heard occasional mutterings from time to time but people tend to shy away from actual info, maybe for fear of showing themselves up as incorrect?

I'm not asking for a specific bull or bulls here, so no need for finger pointing, just asking if and maybe how much it happens?

PM me if you would rather but as I say I'm not wanting to tread on toes just find out generally.

Stephanie

You seem to have a bee in your bonnet about height. I am sure there are many bulls around who have exceeded the maximum permitted height but then they are prepared to linear score a bull before full maturity and will accept a short where the true height is masked as indeed they did with the Elite Bull Scheme (but at least with this scheme it was not just the bull that was assessed).

Whilst not advocating raising the height limit my view is that height is just one of many considerations when assessing the animal as a whole package. Breeding is a journey it is not a destination. It is interesting to hear the comments by our posters from Holland.

Some countrys like Danmark have forbidden the short-legged animal. By selecting on non-short animals being really non-tall the number of overheigted animals was schrinking fast. They are now on a point the are thinking about using taller animals to prevent to little animals.

[Saffy]

Stephanie

You seem to have a bee in your bonnet about height. I am sure there are many bulls around who have exceeded the maximum permitted height but then they are prepared to linear score a bull before full maturity and will accept a short where the true height is masked as indeed they did with the Elite Bull Scheme (but at least with this scheme it was not just the bull that was assessed).

[/quote]

Well Jac - I do wonder about height. If we are using it correctly as a measurement of Dexters. I remember that they are very slow growing a little like a Welsh Pony and just how long they take to make their full height, 5 years being the norm. (My cattle are likely one day to produce an animal outside the height standard I expect - BUT most likely too small.)

What I am getting at is, my own bull is at the bottom end for height, he was measured at UK Sires when he was 6 years old, so he had finished growing. If a tall bull was measured at a much younger age, he would have a few years growing left and if on the upper limit was going to go over.

Is it a concern that Dexters are getting bigger? I am not saying it is. I don't make the rules. I am throwing the question out for discussion. But if a bull is over height he will also be over weight. If he is in "show" condition or similar and then run with "traditional" sized heifers they will struggle when covered which is another consideration.

All Dexters have their place, I don't have anything against any type or size Jac but I think we need to keep our eye on the ball and not forget what makes them a Dexter...surely being within height or at least near it is one of those things.

Stephanie

[Rob R]

You've seen my grazing, anything bigger can't be grazed until December on the marshes, I find the Dexter ideal for this role & the bigger Dexters just seem to be neither one thing nor the other.

[Jac]

Looking at this

http://www.countryfile.com/explore-coun ... gnise-them

I think we need to re-evaluate performance and not how it looks.

[Rob R]

That's always been my philosophy.

[Saffy]

Looking at this

http://www.countryfile.com/explore-coun ... gnise-them

I think we need to re-evaluate performance and not how it looks.

Good point Jac. Perhaps they feel forced to leave The Dexter out as they are originally an Irish animal? Sorry to digress but as for the Hereford represented there I notice it has red patches around the eyes. Back 40 odd years ago when we had Pedigree Herefords and used the occasional Hereford bull on the Friesian herd, you only saw that in a red offspring Hereford X from the Friesian cow.

Stephanie

[Rob R]

This thread prompted me to measure our young(ish) bull this evening, as he's looking like a big lad now, he was 45"