The Great British Menu

Broomcroft · Post by **Broomcroft** » Thu Apr 09, 2009 9:28 am

I fully realise what you are saying.

You say come and join us, how do you join? Isn't it just Northern Ireland?

And how much would you get for a good quality 200 kg deadweight animal at today's prices?

The point I was making though is that Dexter beef is downgraded by bigger Dexters and they are getting bigger. If you believe, as most seem to, that the flavour comes from the breed, then the obvious thing for anyone to do, and they are doing it, is to breed bigger Dexters in the belief that you just get more of the same. But you don't. You'll get exactly what you just described. A different, watered-down product and to make matters worse, Trading Standards will not be able to do anything because it IS dexter beef. i.e. So, by a complete lack of control, in fact I would argue every encouragement there is to get bigger, the pedigree system will ruin it's own product in the longer-term.

Dexter X Irish Moiled is supposed to be sublime.

Pennielea · Post by **Pennielea** » Thu Apr 09, 2009 4:09 pm

Beef prices have dropped here recently but that 200kg steer would fetch around £650

Our scheme is for all of Ireland and were it not for the Bluetongue problem preventing imports to here, we would be sourcing stock from GB.

My taste buds have been destroyed bya lifetime of pipe smoking but I have never been able to detect a difference related to weight. I have had carcass weights varying from 130kgs to 250kgs but maybe as they get heavier the taste may be diluted.

The last Dexter/I Moiled cross I slaughterin the autumn weighed 275kgs at 18 months.
Howard had some of that beef he may be able to comment on quality.

Ian

acrossthesea · Post by **acrossthesea** » Thu Apr 09, 2009 7:45 pm

Yes I did try Ian's Dexter X I.Moiled and it was good but not Dexter. That is one of the problems, if it had been sold as Dexter to someone that was buying for the first time it would have passed as Dexter thats why our group insist on birth notification with the Society. This is just one aspect of the quality control. Ian's cattle are all grass fed and its this that makes the difference to the taste and quality. With regard to Clives comment on size thank god we have a breed standard. The Canadians went for size and look at what they did to the Aberdeen Angus and the Hereford. Now the traditional Angus and Taditional Hereford are on the endangered list and they are trying to get back what they lost. Is this what we want to happen to the Dexter, I think not ,or do we want to go back to what it was 30yrs ago, a rare breed. If what Clive suggests happens ie. big big big.perhaps we could call Dexters like mine TRADITIONAL DEXTERS. If people want big big big go into B/Blue or the other continental breeds. No lets keep to the breed standard and keep a Dexter a Dexter. A SMALL COW.

Howard Hilton (Hillhead Dexters) N.Ireland.

Saffy · Post by **Saffy** » Thu Apr 09, 2009 8:14 pm

Well said Howard.

Stephanie

Broomcroft · Post by **Broomcroft** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 7:15 am

Howard - I agree with most of you say except that the breed standard is NOT a limit. That is why I started the topic "When is a Dexter a Dexter". The conclusion of which was, amazingly to me and including comments from council members, that a Dexter is a Dexter as LONG AS IT IS REGISTERED REGARDLESS OF THE SIZE. And THAT is my point. The registration does NOT, absolutely NOT do what you and others appear to think it does. It does quite the reverse, it is a cover for oversize, taste-reduced, not really dexter animals. The DCS will register ANYTHING where the parents are dexters.

I have just beefed a very large steer that had I left to an older age would have reached well over 250kg deadweight even though totally grass-fed. Well on the way to commercial standards. The beef will be excellent but it will not have that defining Dexter flavour. It is obvious that if you believe the flavour is on the breed, not the size, then to breed large, and especially registered, dexters is THE thing to do. And many do.

My big steer came from breeding outside of my herd, from herds where they would not sell their big ones. Selling four bulls recently, I could have sold my big boy 10 times over. No-one except one very dedicated breeder was interested at all in any of the other three, all of which I had kept precisely because they were moderately sized!

If I had kept my big registered steer as a bull, I would be well on the way to producing steers with 300kg deadweight in my sights. The example you give of a cross being sold as a dexter is simple miss-selling and that will always happen and you've just got to try and stop it. If you try to stop people from producing dexter beef from pure dexters on the basis that they are not registered, that is not possible except from within a private scheme such as yours. The animals will be registered with BCMS.

If you want to add teeth to a private scheme, then do the reverse of the commercial trade and have a price REDUCTION when a a carcass goes over a certain size.

The complete lack of control, in fact it is an encouragement to breed big, coming from the pedigree system is where the real dangers lies.

By the way, I am totally for grass-fed, but some of the best producers in the UK with the highest possible reputations for Dexter beef and the levels of sales feed grain. They cannot grass feed 100% because of altitude.

Edited By Broomcroft on 1239344470

Saffy · Post by **Saffy** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 10:44 am

The way I understood the posting by Howard was he was talking of keeping to the breed standard, which we should all be aiming to do and he talks of his herd being traditional Dexters - I assume similar to Woodmagic in type.

Stephanie

Broomcroft · Post by **Broomcroft** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 4:37 pm

The breed standard is not a limit and it is not "policed" (and I'm not saying it should be) and it is widely ignored. There is every reason why anyone producing beef wants bigger. Butchers want bigger, abattoirs want bigger, if you want to sell any in a local market they will want bigger. Some finishers who will not touch any short leg and will not touch any small long leg. The market is big, big, big.

How David started this concern side of the topic, and he was right to be worried, is that the success of dexter beef could be it's downfall. And without actual "controls", or some sort of incentive to keep within a size range (and height isn't really the issue), then dexter beef could go the same way as other breeds in becoming a watered-down version of what it used to be.

If you read the Wagyu Society blurb, they go to great lengths to describe how they have kept their quality and stopped people from chasing volume instead of flavour. Something like that is the only way that the dexter can do the same thing. Left to the market, just like the banking trade, it will go wrong. That's what I think but only the next 10-15 years or so will tell us.

250kg deadweight carcasses are not that rare nowadays and for all I know there could be bigger ones around. I wonder, and I am asking long-standing breeders here, what would you have thought of a 250kg deadweight carcass say 20 years ago or whenever?

Edited By Broomcroft on 1239377999

Saffy · Post by **Saffy** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 4:42 pm

Clive,

How widespread is the move toward a bigger Dexter, do you have any idea?

Also how would you propose that we keep the breed to the correct size.

My few are very small and my bull particularly so and I hadn't realised there was so much of a problem.

Stephanie

Broomcroft · Post by **Broomcroft** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 5:04 pm

Gosh that was quick I only just pressed the button! I don't think there is a planned move towards bigger animals, it is just a natural progression that is being demanded by the market place (in the main, not always). And it will accelerate with more and more success, so it is looking to the future as much as anything.

This is the confusing bit because it is not really about quality. The beef from bigger Dexters is still brilliant and TOP QUALITY. But I think it loses a particular flavour that I call the Dexter flavour; it's there but only just. I don't have a solution.

Saffy · Post by **Saffy** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 6:23 pm

Hello again Clive,

We know exactly what you mean when you talk of the flavour being different, the meat we have had so far has definitely been different in flavour but it hadn't occured to us until recently that not all Dexter would taste this good.

We tend to think there is a certain depth to the flavour akin perhaps to the difference between an OK red wine and and excellent red wine. :D

I wouldn't want to cook anything else now I have tasted Dexter and cooked with Dexter and my notably sceptical son admits he can tell the difference!

Stephanie

acrossthesea · Post by **acrossthesea** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 6:26 pm

Hi Stephanie, the cry for big,big,big is'nt widespread at the minute.I will give you some figures from N.Ireland. Since 2002 when we started supplying a farm shop we have had one beast of 206.2 kg on the hook. The lowest was a short legged of 114.6. The short legged are sent away at about 20 mnths because they lay down fat after this age. The longer legged ones at about 28 mths. At the end of the day a beast is ready to go when its ready to go. We promote the Dexter on small cuts for the smaller family and quality not quantity. Its not everybody that wants big. The solution to my mind is quite simple. Stick to the breed standard. If you use a female 106cms or under and a bull 111cms or under you will more likely than not get a beast under 111cms. I know that you may get an occasional big one but you will get more smaller ones. Over here Dexter Beef is a niche market comodity due to the unavailability of the product. I believe the taste is due to being naturally fed and pure bred. Also we must not forget that the Dexter is dual purpose not just beef. Lets keep it that way. (Try Dexter milk somtime)

Howard Hilton(Hillhead Dexters)N.Ireland.

Saffy · Post by **Saffy** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 8:56 pm

Hello Howard,

I must confess I have only milked a little colostrum off my girls by hand to keep by me - just in case a calf needed some.

So in your opinion how does it differ from Friesian milk and Jersey milk Howard?

Stephanie

Broomcroft · Post by **Broomcroft** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 6:23 pm

Did you see the Great British Menu last night, the North East contest? The chef and the farmer who produced the meat did a direct comparison between Angus and Galloway from his farm. The Angus won hands down. It had had a little grain and was more marbled and I think that made the difference.

Broomcroft · Post by **Broomcroft** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 8:35 pm

PS. It was a small Angus.

Pennielea · Post by **Pennielea** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 2:48 pm

Just a reminder to bring this back to the top of the list.

Tonight 6.30pm BBC 2

Ian