Wow
I expected a little bit od a stir with this one but I do seem to have set you all off!!
It's been a helpful discussion and I'm now inclined to leave the horns on for the time being to see how we all get on.
I do think that perhaps the society needs a view on this. If the majority of owners are going to dehoenthem surely we should be encouraging the breeding of polled cattle.
What is the situation in other breeds? Perhaps Duncan can help us with this. I'd be interested in his estimate of what proportion of cattle are born with hors and subsequently dehorned.
I'd also like guidance on the best time to dehorn (if I change my mind) That's both the best age and best time of year.
Thanks (in advance)
Horns - Horns
Duncan,
Not sure if this should be in a new topic, but could you elaborate on the above, like when this was done and maybe which lines were found to be not upgraded, and was there a reason this was done? I'm in the USA and am interested to learn more about this.
Thanks,
Carol
Of course it is easy to pick out polled animals, but remember that when Andrew Sheppey went lthrough the breed looking for animals with absdolutely no grading up in their background he could only find a handful out of a breed now numbering several thousand.
Not sure if this should be in a new topic, but could you elaborate on the above, like when this was done and maybe which lines were found to be not upgraded, and was there a reason this was done? I'm in the USA and am interested to learn more about this.
Thanks,
Carol
Hi All,
Hello PeterO ... I have to say that you are wrong when you make the assumption that "By implication you are saying dehorned/polled cattle are safe!" ...that is not what I am saying... with bulls in particular I find it very STUPID that Dexter people tell new breeders that they are safe but this is something to be expected given the demagraphic of Dexter breeders in my country ... in fact the bulls that I was refering to were dehorned... but the piont I was trying to make is that it is not ethical to tell people -emphatically- that such and such is -allways- safe.
Re body language ...yes some people may find it -easier- to read an animal with horns than without... personally I find it just as easy without the horns ... but then the flip side is that an animal without horns to use in the first instance is safer that one that does ... personaly I would rather not have to take my husband to the hospital to have 7 stitches put in his hand because of a horned heifer (which was not ours but another members who we were helping out) and I would rather not have an animal (not bred by me) which objects to being trained try to poke me with her sharp little horns ... I suppose in the end it comes down to what you prefer and yes Peter we can agree to disagree I am quite happy to do so.
PeterT... *smile* I do not know if everyone was going off but I wasnt... just makeing my piont clear is all.
In my oppinion I do not see why any society should have a veiw on this *shrug* except to allow breeders to do what they wish ... as to dehorning in my country - I would say it is pretty high - and it is the only way people who dislike polled dexters (not me *smile*) can show there cattle in the ring at our Agricultural shows because they do NOT incourage horned cattle at all.
RE dehorning your cattle ... I can only tell you what I do here ... I dehorn between 12 and 18 mnths and I usually try to make it during the dry season.
All the best to both Peters.
Hi Carol,
I will leave your question for Duncan but if you need an answer otherwise drop me a line at your site.
Kathleen.
Hello PeterO ... I have to say that you are wrong when you make the assumption that "By implication you are saying dehorned/polled cattle are safe!" ...that is not what I am saying... with bulls in particular I find it very STUPID that Dexter people tell new breeders that they are safe but this is something to be expected given the demagraphic of Dexter breeders in my country ... in fact the bulls that I was refering to were dehorned... but the piont I was trying to make is that it is not ethical to tell people -emphatically- that such and such is -allways- safe.
Re body language ...yes some people may find it -easier- to read an animal with horns than without... personally I find it just as easy without the horns ... but then the flip side is that an animal without horns to use in the first instance is safer that one that does ... personaly I would rather not have to take my husband to the hospital to have 7 stitches put in his hand because of a horned heifer (which was not ours but another members who we were helping out) and I would rather not have an animal (not bred by me) which objects to being trained try to poke me with her sharp little horns ... I suppose in the end it comes down to what you prefer and yes Peter we can agree to disagree I am quite happy to do so.
PeterT... *smile* I do not know if everyone was going off but I wasnt... just makeing my piont clear is all.
In my oppinion I do not see why any society should have a veiw on this *shrug* except to allow breeders to do what they wish ... as to dehorning in my country - I would say it is pretty high - and it is the only way people who dislike polled dexters (not me *smile*) can show there cattle in the ring at our Agricultural shows because they do NOT incourage horned cattle at all.
RE dehorning your cattle ... I can only tell you what I do here ... I dehorn between 12 and 18 mnths and I usually try to make it during the dry season.
All the best to both Peters.
Hi Carol,
I will leave your question for Duncan but if you need an answer otherwise drop me a line at your site.
Kathleen.
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Duncan MacIntyre
- Posts: 2372
- Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2004 12:38 am
- Location: Isle of Bute, Scotland, UK
Trying here to answer several points in one reply.Peter thornton wrote:Wow
I expected a little bit od a stir with this one but I do seem to have set you all off!!
It's been a helpful discussion and I'm now inclined to leave the horns on for the time being to see how we all get on.
I do think that perhaps the society needs a view on this. If the majority of owners are going to dehoenthem surely we should be encouraging the breeding of polled cattle.
What is the situation in other breeds? Perhaps Duncan can help us with this. I'd be interested in his estimate of what proportion of cattle are born with hors and subsequently dehorned.
I'd also like guidance on the best time to dehorn (if I change my mind) That's both the best age and best time of year.
Thanks (in advance)
First, other breeds - I think the answer is that it varies. Obviously there is no horned section in Aberdeen Angus or Galloway herdbooks. But several normally horned beef breeds do have separate sections of the herdbook for polled animals - Hereford or Simmental come to mind. There are even Polled Shorthorns, which seems a bit contradictory. The polling in Croitachonie Bruin on his mothers side came 4 or 5 generations back from a polled shorthorn called Swinsongrange Challenger who was the sire of a cow used for grading up through the appendices starting I think with Vycanny Orphan Annie, but I haven't got all the paperwork in front of me.
If you are asking what proportion of Dexters are born with no horns, see Bob Huntly's recent piece in the Bulletin, maybe second last issue.
On the other hand if you mean cattle overall that is difficult. Apart from the well established polled breeds such as AA and Galloway I think the proportion will be very small, and in dairy breeds totally nonexistant. Red Poll are more a dual purpose breed so I would not class them as dairy. But I believe they were used at one time in an attempt to produce polled Ayrshires. As far as I know every time they got the horns off using the Red Poll they lost milking ability. It certainly seems remarkable that there really is no effective polled dairy breed. If milking and horns are linked inextricably maybe there is a roll for genetic engineering there in a very worthwhile non-sinister way.
As far as timing of dehorning, I think the important thing is to do it humanely and effectively, and at a time of year when flies will not be a problem. This means proper training or use of a vet. As a vet I have come to the conclusion that Dexters are not particularly easy to dehorn well. I get the best results leaving them till the horn is big enough to get a good cut at with a saw, and take off a good margin of haired skin all round. This should be done in autumn, winter or spring and must allow enough time to heal before they are out amongst flies. I have seen maggots in the heads of my own calves before the end of May a year or two ago. That surprised me - maybe due to global warming!! If restraint and anaesthetic is good I do not find any welfare problem with this though I know some folks do not like to see the blood. Usually they heal very quicky if the job is done cleanly. With disbudding irons I have found a number will regrow and look very untidy - look around any show or sale for yourselves. Caustic paste is available and some of my clients use this on their own beef sucklers, but I am not sure how painful this is to the calf. One method I know is used by some involves rubber rings and is TOTALLY unacceptable on welfare grounds.
Duncan
Duncan MacIntyre
Burnside Dexters 00316
Burnside
Ascog
Isle of Bute
Burnside Dexters 00316
Burnside
Ascog
Isle of Bute
The horned/milking situation is interesting. I seem to remember some very undesirable things happened with dairy goats years ago when breeding for polled animals was tried. To the extent, I think, that one of the two must be horned. Things may have moved on now - so I stand corrected if they have, but I wonder if this has any relevance to cattle?
Reading Duncans response and given the move towards the 'ethical' treatment of animals - I wonder how long it will be before we have a nationwide campaign by the assorted animal organisations against the surgical 'mutilation' of cows through dehorning (similar to the campaign against tail docking).
Hey - horned Dexters may become 'fashionable' again!
Peter :D
Hey - horned Dexters may become 'fashionable' again!
Peter :D
Peter
www.kahurangi.org
www.kahurangi.org
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Duncan MacIntyre
- Posts: 2372
- Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2004 12:38 am
- Location: Isle of Bute, Scotland, UK
Yes you are right about the goats, Sylvia. There is a strong link between polled genes and intersex, which produces a large number of kids which are a mixture of male and female. There is no such relationship between genes in cattle.Sylvia wrote:The horned/milking situation is interesting. I seem to remember some very undesirable things happened with dairy goats years ago when breeding for polled animals was tried. To the extent, I think, that one of the two must be horned. Things may have moved on now - so I stand corrected if they have, but I wonder if this has any relevance to cattle?
Duncan
Duncan MacIntyre
Burnside Dexters 00316
Burnside
Ascog
Isle of Bute
Burnside Dexters 00316
Burnside
Ascog
Isle of Bute
Kathleen wrote:... then we have the chondro gene which is unique to the Dexter breed (that is why some scientists call/called it "The Dexte gene")
... and not only this but there are actually 2 'types' of the chondro gene - a unique fact which Julie Cavanagh assures me is a very very very very rare thing indeed- and this second gene is a recient mutation of the first.
Slightly off the subject of horns, can anyone tell me some more about the 2 types of chondo gene?
Good question. I haven't thought this through in much detail - but off the top of my head...
- In what ways do the genes differ, in terms of what shows in animals carrying them?
- Do both types of gene having a dwarfing effect and potentially cause bulldog calves?
- Presuming that carriers of both types of gene would be shortlegs; if you mate 2 shortlegs together, one carrying the first gene and the other carrying the second, do you risk a bulldog calf in the same way as if you had 2 carrying the same chrondo gene?
...Liz
- In what ways do the genes differ, in terms of what shows in animals carrying them?
- Do both types of gene having a dwarfing effect and potentially cause bulldog calves?
- Presuming that carriers of both types of gene would be shortlegs; if you mate 2 shortlegs together, one carrying the first gene and the other carrying the second, do you risk a bulldog calf in the same way as if you had 2 carrying the same chrondo gene?
...Liz
Hello Liz,
Note: The official info is that unless you have bloodlines from the New Zealand line in which this mutation happened you have very little to worry about.
My understanding from the info I recieved from Julie Cavanagh is:
Re: "In what ways do the genes differ, in terms of what shows in animals carrying them?"
None... the difference is at a 'DNA' level in that the gene is located at a slightly different spot... this is what is very very very very rare = that a gene which does the exact same thing as another gene is located at a different place. (this is why I assume it would be hard to find a 'difference' between a polling gene from 'indtroduced gene' and a polling gene that was a 'natural mutation')
Re: "Do both types of gene having a dwarfing effect and potentially cause bulldog calves?"
Yes ...
Re: "Presuming that carriers of both types of gene would be shortlegs; if you mate 2 shortlegs together, one carrying the first gene and the other carrying the second, do you risk a bulldog calf in the same way as if you had 2 carrying the same chrondo gene? "
Yes... but as I said above... unless you have bloodlines from the NZ line then it is apparently not something that you have to worry about.
I did notice in the various posts here and in the states that no-one seemed to be aware of this other mutation... It seemed odd to me ...but then to be fair lots of things seem odd to me *smile*
Hope this helps
Kathleen
Note: The official info is that unless you have bloodlines from the New Zealand line in which this mutation happened you have very little to worry about.
My understanding from the info I recieved from Julie Cavanagh is:
Re: "In what ways do the genes differ, in terms of what shows in animals carrying them?"
None... the difference is at a 'DNA' level in that the gene is located at a slightly different spot... this is what is very very very very rare = that a gene which does the exact same thing as another gene is located at a different place. (this is why I assume it would be hard to find a 'difference' between a polling gene from 'indtroduced gene' and a polling gene that was a 'natural mutation')
Re: "Do both types of gene having a dwarfing effect and potentially cause bulldog calves?"
Yes ...
Re: "Presuming that carriers of both types of gene would be shortlegs; if you mate 2 shortlegs together, one carrying the first gene and the other carrying the second, do you risk a bulldog calf in the same way as if you had 2 carrying the same chrondo gene? "
Yes... but as I said above... unless you have bloodlines from the NZ line then it is apparently not something that you have to worry about.
I did notice in the various posts here and in the states that no-one seemed to be aware of this other mutation... It seemed odd to me ...but then to be fair lots of things seem odd to me *smile*
Hope this helps
Kathleen
A couple of thoughts on the horn subject.
1) The presence or absence of horns makes no impact on the quality, function or ability to mother a calf of the animal. The issue only becomes important when an individual's management systems require that animals are not horned, e.g. for using ring feeders or palours, or to reduce bullying. When the Beef Shorthorn breed can accept polled animals in the herd book, and the Herefords can thrive with no less than four strains within the breed (polled, british polled, horned and traditional) why can we not accept both horned and polled dexters as being of equal merit and pedigree status?
2) The main issue people have with polled animals is that they are not pure dexters. No breed can continue without the insertion of genetics from other breeds and still maintain a sufficiently broad genetic base (especially when the breed is not numerically abundant) and continue breed development. The monitored and careful insertion of new genetics into a breed invariably is good for the development and genepool of the breed, e.g. the careful insertion of Limousin genetics was good for the Sussex, and the insertion of White Park into the Chillingham was crucial to widen the genepool. There is no such thing as purity in any breed, only pedigree status, which guarantees purity for a certain number of generations.
If our cattle or to present themselves as a commercially viable breed, and one continuing to improve at the fast rate of the other beef breeds, then it has been, and may well again prove, necessary to carefully develop the Dexters with genetics from other breeds.
1) The presence or absence of horns makes no impact on the quality, function or ability to mother a calf of the animal. The issue only becomes important when an individual's management systems require that animals are not horned, e.g. for using ring feeders or palours, or to reduce bullying. When the Beef Shorthorn breed can accept polled animals in the herd book, and the Herefords can thrive with no less than four strains within the breed (polled, british polled, horned and traditional) why can we not accept both horned and polled dexters as being of equal merit and pedigree status?
2) The main issue people have with polled animals is that they are not pure dexters. No breed can continue without the insertion of genetics from other breeds and still maintain a sufficiently broad genetic base (especially when the breed is not numerically abundant) and continue breed development. The monitored and careful insertion of new genetics into a breed invariably is good for the development and genepool of the breed, e.g. the careful insertion of Limousin genetics was good for the Sussex, and the insertion of White Park into the Chillingham was crucial to widen the genepool. There is no such thing as purity in any breed, only pedigree status, which guarantees purity for a certain number of generations.
If our cattle or to present themselves as a commercially viable breed, and one continuing to improve at the fast rate of the other beef breeds, then it has been, and may well again prove, necessary to carefully develop the Dexters with genetics from other breeds.
David
What an absolutely wonderful post!
Re:"No breed can continue without the insertion of genetics from other breeds and still maintain a sufficiently broad genetic base (especially when the breed is not numerically abundant) and continue breed development."
That is a 'fact' that is _hidden_ by all other breeds of stud cattle ... I can name you various examples of breeds which have HAD to introduce new genetics because the breed or certain lines were becomming too inbred... and I can give you a list of stud beef breeds that have breeders that 'still do it' on the sly or with Breed permission.
And it is also something that I think the Dexter breeders 50 years ago were aware of ... to expand on that... I became interested in Dexters thro various sources in 1990 ... I was given milking figures from herds that were being milked 'years ago' and showed photos of cows in milk from those periods .... and since then I have been TRYING to find a 'pure' Dexter that looks the same and milks the same ... and to be blunt the only 'Dexters' I have ever found that comes anywhere NEAR them are Grade One females.
Regards
Kathleen Carson.
What an absolutely wonderful post!
Re:"No breed can continue without the insertion of genetics from other breeds and still maintain a sufficiently broad genetic base (especially when the breed is not numerically abundant) and continue breed development."
That is a 'fact' that is _hidden_ by all other breeds of stud cattle ... I can name you various examples of breeds which have HAD to introduce new genetics because the breed or certain lines were becomming too inbred... and I can give you a list of stud beef breeds that have breeders that 'still do it' on the sly or with Breed permission.
And it is also something that I think the Dexter breeders 50 years ago were aware of ... to expand on that... I became interested in Dexters thro various sources in 1990 ... I was given milking figures from herds that were being milked 'years ago' and showed photos of cows in milk from those periods .... and since then I have been TRYING to find a 'pure' Dexter that looks the same and milks the same ... and to be blunt the only 'Dexters' I have ever found that comes anywhere NEAR them are Grade One females.
Regards
Kathleen Carson.