Hi everyone,
I have just been contacted by a friend who has an escalating problem with warts in her herd. She bought some stock from me (unfortunately) in the Spring, including 2 heifers that had only recently come to my herd from another herd.(they looked in good health, hence being introduced to other stock
.....generally all stock are kept seperate when they first arrive )
Shortly after arrival at her place, it became apparent that one of the 2 heifers had a papilloma on its neck. This, she has treated homeopathicly and she felt that it had reduced nicely. Now suddenly 4 months later, other heifers have had significant outbreaks. We are both aware that the condition is contagious, but the research that she has done into the condition implies that it is stock under 2 that will get the warts, but also that it is then carried genetically so that all offspring will be affected. In other words, she feels that the heifers cannot be bred from in case they pass on the warts.She also feels that she cannot breed from the cows this year as their calves will catch the virus when born.
I urgently require any feedback from readers regarding this. Have breeding stock actually passed on the virus to calves, or has it just been caught by youngstock of another with still active warts?
As was mentioned in previous replies to this subject on page one, not all stock seem to pick up these viruses, so warts are not a problem in this herd, and hardly any of mine had run with them anyway. However, to complicate matters further, my bull was due to run with this herd. There has not been any contact previously, because the group purchased was in a seperate barn. Am I opening Pandora's box if I allow my bull to run with them?! ( If she does decide to go ahead and breed from them)
I have suggested AI, but this has been ruled out.
I feel awkward about the whole situation, because although I don't think I could have done anything different, I certainly do not like the idea of anyone having a problem when buying stock off me.
My reputation will be fairly tainted by putting this on the site anyway.
Sorry folks.
Warts again!!
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Duncan MacIntyre
- Posts: 2372
- Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2004 12:38 am
- Location: Isle of Bute, Scotland, UK
Hello Penny,
sorry you feel you are in trouble again on warts. As long as you did not sell cattle with obvious clinically acitve warts I do not think you neeed feel the slightest bit guilty. After all, can we be certain that all cattle in any herd are free of the viruses involved? The other herd may well have had them present before purchasing yours. I say viruses because I think there are something like 6 different viruses involved in warts in cattle. So it is perfectly possible that the warts which have arisen in your friend's herd have nothing whatever to do withthe fact that you have previously had warts.
It sounds as though she fears that her heifers will pass on the virus to their calves. This would not be by "genetic" transmission but by "congenital" ie the calves would pick up the virus from the dam at birth - not the same as being passed in the genes.
At the end of the day the real worry of warts is the active phase interfering with sale or very ocassionally with breeding if they get on penis of a bull or vulva of heifers. In abut 30 years as a vet I have never encountered any really serious problems with warts in an any herd other than making it difficult to send things to a pedigree sale. So I think everyone needs to take a quiet look at the situation through the perspective specticals - no sense in looking to blame one another or to feel guilty, just accept that with the best will in the world wart viruses exist and are a nuisance, but not likely to be much more than that. I know that does not give you the black and white answer you feel you need at present but try to get your friend and yourself to look at it all in a more philosophical light.
Duncan
sorry you feel you are in trouble again on warts. As long as you did not sell cattle with obvious clinically acitve warts I do not think you neeed feel the slightest bit guilty. After all, can we be certain that all cattle in any herd are free of the viruses involved? The other herd may well have had them present before purchasing yours. I say viruses because I think there are something like 6 different viruses involved in warts in cattle. So it is perfectly possible that the warts which have arisen in your friend's herd have nothing whatever to do withthe fact that you have previously had warts.
It sounds as though she fears that her heifers will pass on the virus to their calves. This would not be by "genetic" transmission but by "congenital" ie the calves would pick up the virus from the dam at birth - not the same as being passed in the genes.
At the end of the day the real worry of warts is the active phase interfering with sale or very ocassionally with breeding if they get on penis of a bull or vulva of heifers. In abut 30 years as a vet I have never encountered any really serious problems with warts in an any herd other than making it difficult to send things to a pedigree sale. So I think everyone needs to take a quiet look at the situation through the perspective specticals - no sense in looking to blame one another or to feel guilty, just accept that with the best will in the world wart viruses exist and are a nuisance, but not likely to be much more than that. I know that does not give you the black and white answer you feel you need at present but try to get your friend and yourself to look at it all in a more philosophical light.
Duncan
Duncan MacIntyre
Burnside Dexters 00316
Burnside
Ascog
Isle of Bute
Burnside Dexters 00316
Burnside
Ascog
Isle of Bute
Thanks Duncan.
I have done a bit more investigation, and the herd that the heifer had come from had some small nasal warts on a relative to the heifer in the previous summer, but nothing since then. As you know, last summer following taking some cows to run with one of my bulls I was concerned about strange "blobs" on the noses of my stock, but this apparently had worked itself through the herd and then disappeared. The type of warts that this heifer has ( and now others in the herd) are more crustaceous and pronounced. It sounds like 3 different viruses to me!
I would never sell on any animal that I knew had a problem, and I certainly would not have then visited that herd to help with calving/ eartagging and general advice as I have done, if I had done such a deed.
I have taken in stock to run with the bull, and hired one out, to help people with small herds. However all this has made me realise that I am not helping myself, and whatever precautions I take I am simply not save from disease if I continue to do this. I know many other bull owners also feel vunerable. Taking in steers is also a risky business, so whilstI cannot stop doing this because I cannot breed enough to meet the demand for the beef, I may well get land and buildings further away from the main herd for the steers than they presently are. I do feel that I have been incredibly unlucky, as I know many who are not so keen on biosecurity as I am who seem to get away with it.
By the way, her vet has also advised her that the condition isn't hereditary and that she should carry on breeding. ( but my bulls aren't going anywhere now!)
Penny
I have done a bit more investigation, and the herd that the heifer had come from had some small nasal warts on a relative to the heifer in the previous summer, but nothing since then. As you know, last summer following taking some cows to run with one of my bulls I was concerned about strange "blobs" on the noses of my stock, but this apparently had worked itself through the herd and then disappeared. The type of warts that this heifer has ( and now others in the herd) are more crustaceous and pronounced. It sounds like 3 different viruses to me!
I would never sell on any animal that I knew had a problem, and I certainly would not have then visited that herd to help with calving/ eartagging and general advice as I have done, if I had done such a deed.
I have taken in stock to run with the bull, and hired one out, to help people with small herds. However all this has made me realise that I am not helping myself, and whatever precautions I take I am simply not save from disease if I continue to do this. I know many other bull owners also feel vunerable. Taking in steers is also a risky business, so whilstI cannot stop doing this because I cannot breed enough to meet the demand for the beef, I may well get land and buildings further away from the main herd for the steers than they presently are. I do feel that I have been incredibly unlucky, as I know many who are not so keen on biosecurity as I am who seem to get away with it.
By the way, her vet has also advised her that the condition isn't hereditary and that she should carry on breeding. ( but my bulls aren't going anywhere now!)
Penny
As the breeder in question, I would like to straighten out a few facts here.
I was concerned that the warts may be passed on genetically buy had not ruled out breeding this year.
Previously to buying stock in February, I had a cow and a heifer without warts and these had come from a reliable and very good friend with a herd (still without warts) and who have not had warts in the past.
The heifer which came with warts, the cauliflower type papillomas, had these on her withers and to top of her neck. If I had known how contagious the warts were in February,I certainly would have not let the animal run with the herd.
It is clear from the discussion board that in April, there were a number of postings decribing the contagious nature and difficulties with warts. Unfortunately, I did not have access to that valuable information until very recently on joining the website.
Further research has revealed that there are several types of wart virus, possibly up to nine. Two of these types are thought to transmit to equines and may result in equine sarcoids. As my horses run with the cows, I do have concerns regarding the viral transmission to equines, but having taken veterinary advice on several occasions (my husband and I work closely with the veterinary profession), I am assured we have done everything as far as possible in terms of transmission prevention.
In terms of a philosophical view, the horse has bolted and the gate has been shut, in that the incubation period for the passage of warts (whether small round warts or califlower type warts) is up to six months.
I intend to use AI this year and all heifers will be immune and wart free (hopefully) by calving next year. I will look out for signs of warts in this year's calves, but I certainly shan't be buying any stock in the future.
I was concerned that the warts may be passed on genetically buy had not ruled out breeding this year.
Previously to buying stock in February, I had a cow and a heifer without warts and these had come from a reliable and very good friend with a herd (still without warts) and who have not had warts in the past.
The heifer which came with warts, the cauliflower type papillomas, had these on her withers and to top of her neck. If I had known how contagious the warts were in February,I certainly would have not let the animal run with the herd.
It is clear from the discussion board that in April, there were a number of postings decribing the contagious nature and difficulties with warts. Unfortunately, I did not have access to that valuable information until very recently on joining the website.
Further research has revealed that there are several types of wart virus, possibly up to nine. Two of these types are thought to transmit to equines and may result in equine sarcoids. As my horses run with the cows, I do have concerns regarding the viral transmission to equines, but having taken veterinary advice on several occasions (my husband and I work closely with the veterinary profession), I am assured we have done everything as far as possible in terms of transmission prevention.
In terms of a philosophical view, the horse has bolted and the gate has been shut, in that the incubation period for the passage of warts (whether small round warts or califlower type warts) is up to six months.
I intend to use AI this year and all heifers will be immune and wart free (hopefully) by calving next year. I will look out for signs of warts in this year's calves, but I certainly shan't be buying any stock in the future.
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Duncan MacIntyre
- Posts: 2372
- Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2004 12:38 am
- Location: Isle of Bute, Scotland, UK
There seem to be a few points folk are looking to me to answer, which I will do my best to do, though bear in mind I am a vet in general practice not a specialist or research worker.
1. Genetic transmission - I suspect we are not too clear on whether we are talking true genetic transmission or in utero infection resulting in congenital infection. I do not think true genetic transmission is at all likely. Whilst congenital infection might be possible, ordinary lateral spread of infection is so easy and so likely that congenital infection is likely to be of much less significance.
2. When is a wart infectious? This arose from the way I phrased a previous reply, and I should think the answer is probably that it is always potentially infectious. The animal may also be infectous when we cannot actually spot a wart, but that should not deter us from trying to ensure that they are not spread at shows or sales.
3. Relationship between cattle warts and horses with sarcoids - this seems to be a bit of a contentious issue within those at the sharp end of research within the veterinary schools, at least in the UK. There is definitely some relationship in the DNA involved in both these conditions, but whilst the Glasgow school are more concerned that there may be direct transmission Derek Knottenbelt at Liverpool is of the firm opinion that whilst such transfer may occasionally occur it is not the means by which the vast majority of affected horses acquire sarcoids. He is not greatly perturbed by contact between horses and cattle.
4. The poor old 13yo cow with a youthful crop of warts I suppose can only be explained by her either being "naive" in relation to papilloma viruses, which is possible if she has led a sheltered life, or if for some reason her immune system is not working as well as it should at the time she acquired the warts. If they are causing a real problem she might be an apropriate case for getting an "autogenous vaccine" made up. Such a vaccine is made from the warts on one individual and is only for use on that one individual, to stop spread of any other infection which might occur through using tissue from one animal to prepare vaccine used in many others. It is a nuisance restriction if you have a group of cattle affected simultaneaously but a very important one.
Duncan
1. Genetic transmission - I suspect we are not too clear on whether we are talking true genetic transmission or in utero infection resulting in congenital infection. I do not think true genetic transmission is at all likely. Whilst congenital infection might be possible, ordinary lateral spread of infection is so easy and so likely that congenital infection is likely to be of much less significance.
2. When is a wart infectious? This arose from the way I phrased a previous reply, and I should think the answer is probably that it is always potentially infectious. The animal may also be infectous when we cannot actually spot a wart, but that should not deter us from trying to ensure that they are not spread at shows or sales.
3. Relationship between cattle warts and horses with sarcoids - this seems to be a bit of a contentious issue within those at the sharp end of research within the veterinary schools, at least in the UK. There is definitely some relationship in the DNA involved in both these conditions, but whilst the Glasgow school are more concerned that there may be direct transmission Derek Knottenbelt at Liverpool is of the firm opinion that whilst such transfer may occasionally occur it is not the means by which the vast majority of affected horses acquire sarcoids. He is not greatly perturbed by contact between horses and cattle.
4. The poor old 13yo cow with a youthful crop of warts I suppose can only be explained by her either being "naive" in relation to papilloma viruses, which is possible if she has led a sheltered life, or if for some reason her immune system is not working as well as it should at the time she acquired the warts. If they are causing a real problem she might be an apropriate case for getting an "autogenous vaccine" made up. Such a vaccine is made from the warts on one individual and is only for use on that one individual, to stop spread of any other infection which might occur through using tissue from one animal to prepare vaccine used in many others. It is a nuisance restriction if you have a group of cattle affected simultaneaously but a very important one.
Duncan
Duncan MacIntyre
Burnside Dexters 00316
Burnside
Ascog
Isle of Bute
Burnside Dexters 00316
Burnside
Ascog
Isle of Bute