Bull v AI (but with a difference)

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:28 pm

I may well regret the consequences of this one but I've read most of the arguments regarding AI versus a bull and my understanding is that despite well-documented pros & cons for each method, the consensus is that the bull is usually best.

However, what would the verdict be if I was able to tweak certain aspects of AI?

Specifically, what if, instead of monitoring my five girls daily - not too difficult as there's always someone at home all day - and then shouting for the AI man as and when they need him, I could synchronise them with prostaglandin, but at cost price and with no veterinary call-out fee?

And what if any subsequent pregnancy diagnosis was also free of charge?

Which method wins now?

Duncan MacIntyre · Post by **Duncan MacIntyre** » Tue Apr 18, 2006 10:12 pm

If you are contemplating the illegal use of POM medicines I would have to advise you very strongly to take into account the cost of fines, court appearances and all the consequences. The laws of this country are in place to protect the public, and the animals, from impoper and unprofessional use of powerful drugs. In a large number of cases where illegally supplied drugs have been used they are discovered on investigation not to be what they claim to be anyway. Then there is the old adage that once one lie is told many more have to follow to cover it up. You will have to falsify your medicine records, what does that do for customer confidence in your beef?

Think very carefully.

Please

Duncan

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 10:49 am

What if I come clean and confess that I am also a vet.......
....making all of what I outline above perfectly legal (I would be using my own drugs, bought at cost) and performing my own pregnancy diagnosis (hence no requirement for a call-out charge).

Profuse apologies to all for a perhaps misleading opening to this thread.

Sylvia · Post by **Sylvia** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 3:39 pm

Ryan, on this site honesty is not only the best policy it is also essential. There are Dexter owners of all levels of experience reading posts and probably acting on what appeals to them. So procedures which should only be carried out by a vet need to be clearly identified to avoid those with little experience running into trouble.

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 3:58 pm

Rightly admonished!
There was never any intention to mislead. My excuse (I can hardly call it a reason) was that because I've always known what I do for a living, and all those whose animals I treat know what I am, up until now I have never needed to 'broadcast' or 'advertise' the fact. However, I accept that on a site such as this I need to make it clear that certain procedures that I might mention can only be carried out by vets, and that the reason that I perform these procedures is because I am one.
Please keep me in line until I learn the ropes properly.....

Louisa Gidney · Post by **Louisa Gidney** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 5:08 pm

I've never used AI so can't really comment impartially. What you describe still seems to involve a lot of "faffing about". I tried synchronising goats, many years ago, to take them to a pedigree billy. A lot of trouble & expense for, in the end, one live billy kid. Put me off even considering this approach for Dexters. Why are you averse to a real bull? Plenty of possible reasons but what are yours?
I'm not impressed by vets PD's either. I've had 2 different vets to 3 different cows and all the PD's were wrong. I've not bothered since.

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 6:14 pm

Hi Louisa,
I suppose the main reason is the difficulty of reliably keeping stock apart at the right time; whereas on paper I have almost 50 acres, only 12 of them are what the estate agent called 'pasture land'(!), the rest is woodland which is unusable for cattle unless they're partial to bluebells and wild garlic - and anyway, the pigs have claimed the woods as their own. I have three fields, but public footpaths complicate matters a bit too. The fields have ample natural shelter, but I have no available housing. We also live in a dodgy area regarding TB.
I haven't dismissed the idea of a bull, it's just that I was looking at AI from the viewpoint of someone fortunate enough to be able to go down that route, despite the faffing about factor (and I would be the one quite happily faffing about), for far less expense than most - and whether this advantage was enough to swing things in favour of AI.

Duncan MacIntyre · Post by **Duncan MacIntyre** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 6:40 pm

I began my Dexter Days using AI on one or two females, and got fed up with the poor conception rate even though I was happy with heat detection and timing, AI man was happy, but we just didn't get high conception rates. Overall something like 30%. So in our 3rd year we bought Ilsington Bramble. Several bulls down the line we hit a patch with no suitable bull and bought 6 straws of semen between 3 cows. I synchronised them with prostaglandin, forgot to bill myself, and had them all inseminated on the one day. One held. We got another one next cycle. And the 3rd never conceived. So we had 2 calves out of our 6 straws, 33%. I know it is too small a sample to go making sweeping judgements, but I suspect that Dexters and AI do not go that well together for whatever reason. Having said that if keeping a live bull is to dangerous or impractical then go for AI.

Duncan

marion · Post by **marion** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 10:35 pm

Hi Ryan. I have had six years of AI-ing my Dexters. All have caught with one, sometimes two straws. I had one last year that did not conceive to four tries, even tho' the tech. said the timing was right, she has checked healthy and will be put to a bull this year. My cows are down the road from my house. It would be much easier if I could see the paddock, but for the owner of a small number of cows, I think AI is great

. I do not bother to preg. check, just watch for heat signs at the appropriate time.

Louisa Gidney · Post by **Louisa Gidney** » Thu Apr 20, 2006 8:20 am

Only 12 acres of usable land, some of us run a herd on that! What about synchronising the cows for a hired in bull? Best of both options and he would be on the spot for any returns at 3 weeks.

Martin · Post by **Martin** » Thu Apr 20, 2006 8:44 am

Full time employment makes me keep a bull. I am not there exept for short periods in the mornings and evenings Monday to Friday. Unless I could reach agreement with my cows to always cycle at weekends I can see no alternative.
This year 1 calf then 2 weeks wait then 3 calves in 3 days, now 2 weeks later last heifer can now only be a couple of days away. I now have a good 3 year old bull that I am considering changing as I would like to keep some of his heifers. Not a problem until next year, so he can rest easy for a while. Whatever system you prefer, or have to use there are always good and bad points, you just choose what suits you best. Just don't rule out a bull, there's something special about having one running with your cows. On a personal note, if I couldn't for any reason run a bull I would give up keeping cows, he is just the icing on the cake.

ann · Post by **ann** » Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:48 pm

Hi

When I first started with dexters I only used A.I and I had a very good results, in one year 6 cows all held to the first serve, however I never use A.I on a cow on its first heat, this seems to be a No No, so I always wait until around the 12th week after calving, this does give you a problem if your cow does not hold to the ist service as if you want them all to calf around the same time you lose 3 weeks.

However I have notice that the quality of the semen currently available may not be as good as it use to be as my results over the last few years have not been as good.

I did discuss this with one of my A.I. technicians who has been doing in for over 40 years and one of his comments was that if you have semen taken privately the collections of the semen do to the costs are not always based on the quality of the vigour of the semen, when commercial semen is collected it has to be of a very high quality other wise it is discarded, however when someone is paying personally due to the costs the vigour of the semen may be of a lower grade.

I would be interested to know if anyone who has taken semen has any comments to make on this subject., as the last two lots of semen I bought out of 4 straws I got one calf and out of the other 4 straws I got one deformed calf, so I have become rather wary of buying more semen considering the costs and time loss involved.

By comparison my straws for Cornhair Outlaw and Donnagrange Rob have given me 100% success.

Ann

Liz D · Post by **Liz D** » Thu Apr 20, 2006 5:33 pm

The ease and cost of A.I. in Canada, sure beats keeping a bull to service just a few cows. Not only has it been less expensive for us but more importantly it has allowed us to access top quality bulls and use them to breed for traits. We have only had Dexters for three years, and the ability to use proven sires as opposed to feeling our way about. As Marion said, the AI technitians here can usually tell when a cow is 'ready' (I guess if I spent that much time on the business end of a cow ...I would too :D ) and are 'on-call' by machine 24 hrs daily. Meaning they are here within twelve hours of your call. The only time I have contemplated a bull was looking at my little yearling (non-dwarf dam of 40") and wondering if my tech would report us for cow abuse when I breed her in a couple of months!! But seriously, with good advise from people on potential sires, and good genetics to choose from...I don't know why anyone here wouldn't give AI a try! Liz (CDN - Duncan :D )

dai · Post by **dai** » Thu Apr 20, 2006 6:50 pm

We synchronised and AI'd our Hereford and Lim cattle, and had mixed results. The problems with conception rates tend to be due to either a) inexperienced inseminators or b) average sperm motility. We've found that a bull with only average motility won't do so well on synchro'd cows, so it proves worth while to have a straw tested first - something you could do yourself pretty quickly and easily.

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Sat Apr 22, 2006 2:44 pm

Thank you all for your comments and suggestions. I'm still undecided, although clearly better placed to make the decision. They will need 'attention' one way or the other by mid June, so I've still got some thinking time.

Ryan

P.S. Just a thought - has anyone any (non-short) bulls for hire in Staffs/Derbys area?