UK Registry requirements

[JamsHundred]

I note that in 2017 there is a requirement for chondrodysplasia testing on bulls being registered.
Why is there no similar requirement for PHA?

One cow, imported from the UK herd to Canada was the source of PHA in the Canadian, American, and Australian herds. PHA moved silently through the US for more than two decades before the extent of animals carrying PHA were discovered through testing. Although PHA can in many cases be detected by observation, it takes hours of study to begin to notice the signs, unlike the dwarf genes which are usually more observable.

It seems there is little testing in the UK for PHA?

Judy
USA
PS. . There was a breeder who discussed records he kept on his chondro breeding on this forum, I think in the last year or so? Could someone direct me to either the post or the person? Thanks

[Kirk- Cascade Herd US]

Woodmagic Wheatear was the source of PHA in the U.S.. There is a 99% chance she got it from one of her two parents, and a 1% chance it was a fresh mutation in her.

If I were a UK Dexter breeder, I'd be pushing for everyone to test descendents of Wheatear's parents and grandparents.

[Duncan MacIntyre]

In about 2011 I was part of a small group tasked with looking into this. One breeder had had two calves from related cows abort abnormal calves in two successive years. A so called genetics advisor had advised the lady to bury the first calf, then the next year did a "post mortem" although totally unqualified to do so. He declared there was no lung tissue present. PHA. However tests by Jon Beever proved negative - though it took 4 months for said expert to get hair from the parents to test when they were only 4 miles from his home. The gathering of samples only happened when I obtained kits from elsewhere to do it myself or have the owner do it.

The most I could persuade DCS to do was to test some AI bulls.

At that time I traced descendants of Woodmagic Squirrel 2nd to 4 generations, there were 2907 of them, of which 880 were said to be alive at that time. Descendants of Doesmead Diana 2nd to 6 generations revealed 1314 of which 815 were alive on the online herd book. We are now 6 years down the line, the number of descendants will have continued to increase, but we are not having any possible cases reported as far as I know.

Duncan

[Duncan MacIntyre]

I have to say I am very sad that in a whole week no one else has seen fit to contribute to this thread. Is no one interested, or are you all to scared to put your head above the parapet?

Come on, lets have some thoughts.

Duncan

[Duncan MacIntyre]

I have to say I am very sad that in a whole week no one else has seen fit to contribute to this thread. Is no one interested, or are you all to scared to put your head above the parapet?

Come on, lets have some thoughts.

Duncan

[Jac]

I have to say I am very sad that in a whole week no one else has seen fit to contribute to this thread. Is no one interested, or are you all to scared to put your head above the parapet?

Come on, lets have some thoughts.

Duncan

The breed is promoted as 'easy care', 'robust' etc. and if people have not experienced repeated problems i.e. enough to call in the veterinary profession for further investigation then it tends to be ignored i.e. where there is livestock there is dead stock. Although all vets are well versed in the 'bulldog' how many are very familiar with PHA being specifically associated with the Dexter to advise testing?

In general, cattle health does not appear to be a priority with Dexter enthusiasts, few are willing to pay a premium for stock 'certified free' of whatever over here. Unfortunately,there are still too many who prefer to take a risk on a low priced animal - buy it and throw it away.

[Louisa Gidney]

I think over here we are very much more concerned with diseases that affect the national herd, not just Dexters. TB is an ongoing problem requiring testing and I count my blessings that my herd is in a 4 year testing zone that is on the verge of being the first English region to be declared officially TB free. The next national problem is BVD, with a voluntary eradication programme being promoted, prior to a possible compulsory one. This has a clear financial message as Scotland is officially BVD free and I'm close enough to the Border to sell or hire stock into Scotland. Schmallenberg disease has already been reported this year. Blue tongue lurks in the background. Avian flu has been this winter's big disease story. Meningitis is rarely mentioned but I've lost calves and sheep to this.
After all this, PHA seems a relatively minor concern. I know of no personal or anecdotal examples of this occurring in Dexters in Britain. Therefore why should I incur expense and inflict the test on my stock?

[Jac]

I know of no personal or anecdotal examples of this occurring in Dexters in Britain. Therefore why should I incur expense and inflict the test on my stock?

Yes, that is the case however, as you also mention there are a number of other concerns although not specifically genetic. Unless people are forced to test and comply many don't wish the bother or expense of doing so particularly with something that is not contagious.

We now have pre-registration compulsory testing of bulls for chrondro is PHA next? I have no particular gripe about the bother of testing just the expense of having to absorb the costs of doing so. You only have to look at pre-movement TB testing, how many have been able to put the price of that on the stock they sell?

[Rob R]

You can soon test away any profit that might be had for a disease that doesn't yield the corresponding funds in extra revenue, so there's little wonder that people don't bother. Even before you start looking at diesases, forage analysis alone could eat heavily into the profits of any small herd. We are encouraged to test for many things because ancillary industries can profit from it, but the livestock keeper/grower doesn't tend to be among them.

[Saffy]

There was PHA in The British Friesian cattle here in the UK back as far as the 1970s. I know as it happened in our milking herd, we had one PHA calving, it was a horrible calving, very much a vet job and the cow was a big strong animal but it was very hard on her. I do not wish to be misquoted now or in the future - I am talking British Friesian Herd not Dexter! We didn't keep anything for breeding from that cow.

Stephanie

[Louisa Gidney]

Saffy, I'm guessing your Friesian herd numbered 100's of cows over the years with potentially 1000's of calves born but only one PHA calf. So, probably a fraction of 1% of your calves born. Woodmagic breeding is potentially implicated in American Dexter PHA but your Dexters are very much Woodmagic bred, you've actually seen PHA in another breed but so far you've not had a Dexter example. Given this sort of probability level, I'm certainly not going to lose sleep over PHA.

[Saffy]

Yes Louisa approx 125 calvings a year for decades and only one PHA calf and not a Dexter.

[Duncan MacIntyre]

Glad to see a few more posts here, the issue of PHA has never had much of a public hearing in the UK Dexter circles although it is a major issue in other countries. Even when I was part of a committee looking at such things it was never properly discussed. My reason for responding to Kirk's post here was just to provoke some discussion, to make people in UK more aware of the concerns of Dexter breeders elsewhere.

PHA is a defect which has been identified in several different breeds, though I do not know if the defects in the different breeds are caused by the same mutation. In the Dexter it was identified in North America. and traced, by all accounts, to a Woodmagic export. What was never really established beyond all doubt was whether that heifer was the original source of the PHA defect, or if she herself had inherited it from parents.

My views on this situation are partly coloured by my familiarity with the story of Dwarf Herefords in the USA. Like PHA this is caused by a recessive gene, and the carrier animals have normal appearance. A very simplified history of the Dwarf Hereford problem is that a bull born in 1899 sired two carriers of the gene, and due to various circumstances these two produced quite a number of descendants carrying the defect, but because they were siring offspring in widely separated populations the defect never became a problem for 50 years. Yes half a century. It then took several decades to do the detective work necessary to document the source and begin eliminating the problem.

I have absolutely no wish to suggest that the UK Dexter population is in the same situation. However I recognise that we may not have done enough to satisfy breeders abroad that our slate is clean.

I also have wider concerns that one of our DCS genetic advisors is more concerned with rumour and tittle tattle, secrecy and suggestion, than honest open investigation of potential problems.

Duncan

[Tim Watson]

If it is that much of a concern why doesn't the DCS go to someone like the SRUC, negotiate a reduced fee onto the Premium Cattle Health Scheme for all DCS members and then sing it from the roof tops that as a breed we are driving forward to eradicate what we can and that all registered Dexters are premium health.
The concern that people will think that Dexters are infected doesn't stand up if it's done nationally. It would be like a car company not fitting seat belts because it's owners never crash.
That is something I would sit up and listen to and would consider it to be something really well done for the members.


Tin hat on, sandbags in place..........................

[Jac]

If it is that much of a concern why doesn't the DCS go to someone like the SRUC, negotiate a reduced fee onto the Premium Cattle Health Scheme for all DCS members and then sing it from the roof tops that as a breed we are driving forward to eradicate what we can and that all registered Dexters are premium health.
The concern that people will think that Dexters are infected doesn't stand up if it's done nationally. It would be like a car company not fitting seat belts because it's owners never crash.
That is something I would sit up and listen to and would consider it to be something really well done for the members.


Tin hat on, sandbags in place..........................

I wish. It would have been just brilliant to be able to buy in stock without jeopardising my health status if more breeders would just sign up to a health scheme. Perhaps when BVD testing becomes compulsory in England and Wales there may be some movement on this.