linear assessment price premium

[Tim Watson]

Does anyone have any evidence of high scored LA cattle commanding a premium?

[Jac]

The difficulty in determining the answer to that questions is where people dispersing herds have enjoyed tremendous success in the show ring and have them assessed to sell (Hunt sale) as most probably they would have got a high price anyway as with (pre-linear assessment scheme) the Knightsway sale. In other cases animals from famous herds (for different reasons altogether) and in those circumstances it is impossible to determine whether the publicity surrounding the assessment results had an effect.

I don't see the benefits of linear scoring to be one of uplifted prices but as a tool for your own information with regard to progress within your own breeding programme. An animal plucked out of one persons breeding programme (despite a high score) may not be capable of replicating that success in someone elses breeding programme. You have to have the knowledge of how it might be of value and that will determine the price not the linear score on its own.

[Mark Bowles]

How can you really prove a premium Tim. You are asking to compare before and after a linear visit, you cant say you sold an animal for X then it was scored a week later and was then sold for Y, can you?
A single animal in a pedigree with the only score would obviously not show a great lot, but to a novice would give them a little more confidence to buy I would hope. The advantages that come with time where a premium may be gained is where a number of animals in the pedigree are assessed. I will be selling a heifer this spring that has 9 classified animals on its green pedigree, 4xEX bulls and 5x VG females, next year I expect to produce females with poss 14 classified animals in there pedigree, all EX or VG,surley that then means some thing even to an out and out novice?
Australian dexters have been linear assessing using Holstein Australia longer than we have, I would think they would be achieving the same.
This year our linear programme will be taken up by forward looking breeders in Northern Ireland and Germany.

[Jac]

The advantages that come with time where a premium may be gained is where a number of animals in the pedigree are assessed. I will be selling a heifer this spring that has 9 classified animals on its green pedigree, 4xEX bulls and 5x VG females, next year I expect to produce females with poss 14 classified animals in there pedigree, all EX or VG,surley that then means some thing even to an out and out novice?

Looking at some of your recent purchases and how they will complement your herd is the accumulation of knowledge you have gained over a period of time and a level of quality which most probably would have been achieved (as others have done) without linear scoring - there are no short cuts. One can b****r up anyones careful breeding programme in a couple of generations which may not always be a bad thing as linear stars just like show stars can have an effect on breed diversity. Anything that can be done to improve your prices has got to be a good thing and it would be great if more folk found themselves in a position to participate with sufficient space/resources to run large numbers of stock on. Can you put a price on personal satisfaction? As to whether you would ever re-coup your financial outlay is questionable.

[Duncan MacIntyre]

I look on linear assessment more as an independent assessment of my herd, showing me the strengths and weaknesses. I have not bought in any females for 17 years, and have only used two bought in bulls neither of which was assessed when I bought them. However I would be looking or hoping to look at the full asessment if I were buying in a bull now, and I hope to have the herd assessed as fully as possible this year. I did hope to have it done last year, but as usual work is the curse of the Dexter keeping classes, and I did not have the time to have them all accessible - much of our ground is away from any handling facilities.

Linear assessment is also only one for a number of things to look at - eg temperament is not really assessed although extremely bad temperament would result in no assessement, oveall condition, disease status of the individual animal and of the herd of origin, proximity, etc etc.

Duncan

[Saffy]

I simply cannot understand why Dexter breeders wish to rip apart Linear. It is a proven tool for specifically scrutinizing the whole herd by highly trained individuals for commercial herds for decades and I am not sure what reason or point there is to look for a fault in this long time commercially proven and very useful procedure, especially if you haven't actually attended an assessment yourself in order to know what goes on.

Have to admit I have been a fan ever since my Dad had our Friesians done decades ago and I wouldn't have realised how good it was IF I hadn't been there!!!

Stephanie

[Jac]

by highly trained individuals for commercial herds for decades

With respect Stephanie, the Dexter however much we would wish it is not a commercial breed and neither is it a standard breed.

As Duncan has said linear scoring is a very useful independent assessment together with the caveats. I would add useful for those with a 'standard' herd and taken out of context could be used to impress the ignorant. The original post was about premium prices. I would not seek to put anyone off linear scoring but it isn't a short cut to high prices. It's a lifetimes work with all the expense involved so the actual cost of getting there has to be taken into account when working out returns. Perhaps expectations should be managed as prices are not going to compare to those of high scoring linear assessed commercials and neither is it going to turn it into a mainstream commercial breed.

[Saffy]

And...with - equal respect Jac I haven't suggested that the dexter is commercial,I am stating that the service provided by Holstien Society Assessors has been available for decades and used for decades by commercial farmers.

My point is that these farmers are commercial. They nearly all went through Young Farmer stock judging competitions like my children and could judge an animal with their eyes shut probably before they were 10 years old but STILL understand the practical use of having this service come to their herd.

Notably over the last few years many other breed societies have started to use linear, it will in my opinion be a shame if dexters owners don't make good use of it now, especially whilst it is at a reduced price!

Don't condemn something you haven't tried.... ; )

Stephanie

[Jac]

I am going to send you a private reply to this.

With regard to the following

... especially whilst it is at a reduced price!

Are you trying to tell the membership that this is a one off fee? That you haven't got to commit for the long haul? The assessment fee itself even at full price is a 'drop in the ocean' when taking into account the true costs of retaining stock over the long term to make this work. Not forgetting the developing an outlet for the 'also ran'. You can liken this to what Rob said about the beef, 'grows like grass', 'sells itself' etc. Am I saying that no one should bother? No, just with eyes wide open.

[Louisa Gidney]

The initial enquiry was whether there was evidence for a short term financial benefit to high score LA animals. All the responses indicate no, it is a tool for long term breeding strategy and, hopefully, eventual financial benefit. It would therefore not appear to be a tool of interest to those herds which are unlikely to have a long term future for whatever reason, for example children growing up and losing interest or adults getting too old to cope with the work.

[Mark Bowles]

I do know of a case where dexters were sold for extremely good money £1000 per animal, admitted not tens of them, but apparently the buyer only wanted linear stock.
Would the breeder have got an enquiry without linear, probably not, would they have been able to attain that sort of money without it, maybe not. I don't know every herds ins and outs I'm afraid and nowhere near all the herds read this board and as we know very few reply, maybe they are just getting on with it nice and quiet and slowly building a herd of quality assessed animals.

[Jac]

I do know of a case where dexters were sold for extremely good money £1000 per animal, admitted not tens of them, but apparently the buyer only wanted linear stock.
Would the breeder have got an enquiry without linear, probably not, would they have been able to attain that sort of money without it, maybe not.

The last female to leave my herd achieved a sale price of £1,200 and as she was quite close to calving (a male - we had castrated) the purchaser also paid an additional sum for keep until they were able to take delivery. She was not linear scored but was a quality heifer. Mark, you have probably been at shows where exhibitors have been approached and been offered in excess of £1,000 for stock on display many times. I would also add here that I have beefed quality heifers at times to retain my beef customers and the price obtained for the beef was in the region of £1,000 but let's not get everyone over excited - it does not 'sell itself' and things are getting harder with the rise in folk producing beef - both members and non-members.

What we currently have is overproduction and linear scoring may even add to their number if incorrectly sold. You have the experience to beef females before assessment if they are not worthy others do not. Perhaps you are fortunate enough to have a market for beef, selling all you can produce (and boy, do you need to work your butt off to sell more than a small number!) Others put their discards up for sale where they end up as breeding stock although admittedly this also applies with breeders who do not subscribe to the scheme. Am I against people joining the scheme? No, if they have a market for the discards (as beef or are willing to pay for disposal) and resources to do it, they accept that this is a long term commitment and there is no guarantee that there is a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. What I do strongly object to is the implication that everyone else is producing second rate stock.

It is unfortunate that I seem to be painting a black picture but you are painting a rosy one. The truth is out there. Let's hope we don't go the way of the Alpacas....

http://modernfarmer.com/2014/11/alpaca- ... ing-pains/

[Louisa Gidney]

While the Alpacas are indeed a cautionary tale, I don't think the Dexter is in the same situation. For a start the breed has been established here since the 19th century, so there isn't the novelty value to be exploited by the unscrupulous importing stock to a new country (that probably played out prior to 1892). Secondly cattle are beef, there isn't the level of prejudice comparable to eating cute fluffy things. The immediate answer to the initial question of "why do you keep Dexters?" is always "they taste good".
The Alpaca story follows a similar trajectory to the Angora goat boom in the 1980's. Establishing a market for fibre that pays the cost of keeping neutered males that have little meat value is not a Dexter problem.

[Jac]

Secondly cattle are beef, there isn't the level of prejudice comparable to eating cute fluffy things.

Is that the case with both sexes? The main issue here is that there is no established outlet for the beef - you can't breed more (linear scored or otherwise) unless you have a guaranteed market as do commercial breeds (yes, the prices fluctuates slightly but the industry supports its own).

I can agree with the following statement from the article

'The problem, both analysts and some farmers believe, was the focus on breeding at the expense of developing a market and an infrastructure'.

I applaud Mark for his efforts with the LA but without the above in place it is going to be an uphill struggle. A few leaflets and posters (whilst welcome) does not amount to ' developing a market and an infrastructure'. So does anyone have any ideas or is everyone sorted?

[Tim Watson]

Lots of interesting responses.
I deliberately asked a short question with no backup to see where it would go.
Like many I have only so much in my piggybank so I like try so see what benefits I get for my pound spent. Hence the question.
From what I have read it appears that I may not get a financial return on my investment but it is rather more akin to paying for some education as I will find out if the ones I think are good reallly are or if I have had my rose tinted specs on again.
That will make me think a little more but I suspect - depending on the cost - I may go ahead. If it does anything it will tell me what to sell.