A subject for another thread

[Rob R]

Sorry, you've lost me now, what are you wasting your breath on? What were you expecting me to say?

I really am at a loss as to what it is that you expect me and your fellow Dexter breeders to do that would make you happy.

[Louisa Gidney]

Jac, I too feel that udder quality is not receiving due attention these days. Cassie had a superb udder, there's a photo of her newly calved in the thesis, which her descendants have inherited. My red cow is her great grand daughter by Knotting Leo. I swopped a 9 year old bull of my breeding for Leo aged 11.
The Knotting cow offered me was a Woodmagic Dormouse daughter, when Dormouse was on AI and used very widely, so there was nothing special about the breeding of the animal.
Part of the moral of the Knotting anecdote is that Jayne Paynter did try to breed £1000 cows. The result was that no-one like me went to the dispersal sale, as we all expected stock to be out of our price range, so prices on the day were low and those there got bargains.

[Jac]

Sorry, you've lost me now, what are you wasting your breath on? What were you expecting me to say?

I really am at a loss as to what it is that you expect me and your fellow Dexter breeders to do that would make you happy.

You personally nothing, you are doing your bit. What have we got the beef certification scheme for? Why was it set up?

[Jac]

Part of the moral of the Knotting anecdote is that Jayne Paynter did try to breed £1000 cows. The result was that no-one like me went to the dispersal sale, as we all expected stock to be out of our price range, so prices on the day were low and those there got bargains.

When you reflect on how long ago this was and how much the cost of everything has gone up since. Is the breed moving forward with the times?

[Rob R]

Sorry, you've lost me now, what are you wasting your breath on? What were you expecting me to say?

I really am at a loss as to what it is that you expect me and your fellow Dexter breeders to do that would make you happy.

You personally nothing, you are doing your bit. What have we got the beef certification scheme for? Why was it set up?

AFAIK to cost effectively allow small breeders to legally label their produce as 'Dexter Beef'. Also to simultaneously promote and verify genuine Dexter beef from pedigree animals.

I can recognise what Louisa is saying - in the Kerry Hill (sheep) world over the past few years there has been an influx of purely show breeders, and then a new buyer with a lot of money pushing the price of stock at official sales up to unsustainable levels. Whilst the money coming into the breed has been useful for the established breeders that managed to sell stock at higher prices, it hasn't done much for the long term viability of the breed as anyone producing meat from the breed has seen higher costs on the back of it and have moved away from breeding pedigree Kerry's.

The meat (and hobby) breeders might not be the creme de la creme of the showring or salering, but they are the ones who maintain a wide variety of genetic diversity within the breed and keep it away from the RBST watchlist. If 'good' genetics are available relatively cheaply that at least gives the person on a budget the possibility of being able to select decent stock, without having to 'breed up' poor cows using AI bulls.

[Louisa Gidney]

Rob has phrased this point very clearly.
I was trying to show that the £1000 Knotting cow was not sustainable back in the day, when the breed was rare and established breeders had waiting lists for heifers. The Dormouse cow was offered to me a year later, aged 11, for £500. 50 % capital depreciation in one year. I declined. It was not heard of thereafter, so presumed culled for beef, returning to my point that at the end of the day the cull cow price is what they are worth, whatever the personal value.
On a happier note, my red cow has calved and still has a functioning quarter, so reprieved.
Off on another tangent, ex-breeders who have retired to Ludlow area have been in touch asking for beef as they were horrified to see Dexter beef at £8.50/lb in the local farmer's market, when they used to grow their own. Looks like I may have a sale at £6.50/lb.

[Jac]

I was trying to show that the £1000 Knotting cow was not sustainable back in the day

When I first started I didn't start with 'show animals' and I seem to recall paying around £500 for heifers. So in say another 15 years or so we will still be saying that £500 is about the right price for a Dexter? I wonder if we will still be selling our beef for the same price 15 years hence? Obviously the person selling the beef in Ludlow has moved on....

I can't blaim anybody for purchasing animals for less than they can produce them for themselves (whatever that figure may be) but if things go on the way they are Dexters will end up back on the endangered list unless the steady stream of hobby keepers continue.

[Rob R]

I personally can't see Dexters being at risk of being back on the endangered list unless a few of the more sizeable herds are discouraged from registering pedigree, as happened with the Kerry Hills. I'm intending to stay with pedigree Dexters, and unless the society makes it very expensive/too difficult, I suspect others will too.

Very few of the breeding animals that I've bought in have been less than the cost I can produce them for, it's just a case of not being able to produce them quickly enough to keep up with the available grazing. While the price of beef has almost doubled in the last 10 years, at the same time, the cost of everything else has gone up too, and they've got to pay the bills before they can pay for more cows. The whole of the industry is squeezed and if figures continue the way they are, by 2030 we'll be eating, as a nation, approximately half the meat that we currently are (6.1% as a proportion of diet v 12%).

[victorfirst]

Just a quick question

A cow valued at £500 will she have a small slow growing calves and her £1000 counterpart have a fast growing calves with longer a breeding span.

Quality pedigree sheep have faster growing lambs etc, and are worth a lot more money.

Dexters in my opinion are a niche market, and some people will want pretty cows to show with a higher price tag than the man that just wants to earn a few quid. (Are the show cows better?or just more coveted by their fellow competitors)

[Louisa Gidney]

Victor1st, interesting question. As far as sheep go, I know for my breed and my circumstances that the pretty show sheep are the ones that go down first whereas the plain ones on the fringe of the breed standard have enhanced survivability in a rough winter.
I expect my cows to have plenty of high butterfat % milk, as evidenced by calf growth and condition. I want a small calf at birth that then grows like a weed. So far, they're doing the job.
I must say that Jac and Rob are to be congratulated on keeping this stimulating topic going. It's clear that Dexters produce the goods for a range of scenarios, hence the diversity of opinions.

[Jac]

While the price of beef has almost doubled in the last 10 years, at the same time, the cost of everything else has gone up too, and they've got to pay the bills before they can pay for more cows.

Exactly the point I am making. What I am talking about is the fact that prices for ''general' (for want of a better word) Dexters have not moved despite the cost of the inputs. At the time I purchased my first Dexters I can remember paying 75p/£1 bale for reasonable hay now you cannot make it for that let alone sell it. I know that they are marketed as 'thrifty' but they don't live on fresh air!

..... and as for the bills, they don't give away subsidised electricity or diesel why are people with Dexters living in the past?

[Jac]

There may be a pause in proceedings Loiuse as I am having the roof done on the cottage and the ceiling is coming down in my office today.

[Louisa Gidney]

I thought I was antique but hay was £1.50/bale and straw £1/bale when I started out. I've just paid £2.75/bale for hay out of the field. Dexter price is supply and demand. Demand outstripped supply when I started out, now it's the other way round.
As for living in the past, as an archaeologist and living history presenter I do this professionally!

[Rob R]

While the price of beef has almost doubled in the last 10 years, at the same time, the cost of everything else has gone up too, and they've got to pay the bills before they can pay for more cows.

Exactly the point I am making. What I am talking about is the fact that prices for ''general' (for want of a better word) Dexters have not moved despite the cost of the inputs. At the time I purchased my first Dexters I can remember paying 75p/£1 bale for reasonable hay now you cannot make it for that let alone sell it. I know that they are marketed as 'thrifty' but they don't live on fresh air!

..... and as for the bills, they don't give away subsidised electricity or diesel why are people with Dexters living in the past?

As Louisa says, supply and demand drives the Dexter price (and the price of any other breed of cattle, hence the beef price problems in the wider industry at present) not the cost of inputs. Much as I would like the price of Dexters and beef to go up according to cost it's never going to happen. That's why I was suggesting buying any stock that you can see a profit in as meat and thereby reduce the supply side, something a few people *could* do, as the Dexter is in the minority.

As for hay in small bales, you really are living in the past if you are relying on those . Of course it relies on you having the machinery to move them, which may cost more, for those with fewer cows, than the added cost of buying small bales, but that is just something completely unconnected to the price you get at the end. You can't expect the price of heifers or beef to go up to cover that cost. The only way to address that as a cost is to either accept it or spread it over more animals.

I tend to market my beef as 'grassfed beef' rather than 'Dexter beef' and it just happens to be produced by Dexters. Maybe I should make more of the Dexter in it, but I can't help feeling that there is only a limited market for Dexter and smaller breeders tend to rely on that market. I'd like to see an increased demand for the beef, as we are significantly understocked after taking on more land following the terrible winter of 2012, when we ran out of forage and had to turn out & hope the grass started growing. The biggest constraint I have (other than customers) is winter housing, which is a significant cost but with our land it just isn't possible to outwinter cattle, so it's something we have to bare, as a smaller herd has to bare the cost of small bales. It's swings and round-abouts.

[ann]

I thought I was antique but hay was £1.50/bale and straw £1/bale when I started out. I've just paid £2.75/bale for hay out of the field. Dexter price is supply and demand. Demand outstripped supply when I started out, now it's the other way round.

As a very early member I think you have quite a head start on Jackie who join the society many years after both of us, and i can also remember hay being much more expensive than it is now if you factory the cost of living into the equation.
Sadly the price of cattle and sheep have not held pace with the cost of living and only so many people can afford or are prepared to pay high prices for meat and cattle. I have followed this thread, however I'm not sure what it exactly tells us. Rob makes his living from his dexters, so his dexters are surely more productive than dexters that just pay their way.I have kept dexter not quite as long as Louise but I'm not far behind her, my dexters are also expected to pay their way, however all though I have a reasonable sized herd all my animals are individuals and when they come to the end of their days I take responsibility for their end. All my females are halter trained and I rarely show as i just didn't have the time when i was working and now I'm very wary of taking my cattle to shows in case i bring problems home. As my herd is a closed herd I have not brought anything in since my first purchases in the 80's except for a couple of bulls in the 90's. This is a great site and I shall continue to follow this thread with interest