First return of Dexters to Ireland

[Broomcroft]

As a matter of interest, what was the old standard?

[JohnO]

I believe it was between 38 and 42 inches at the rump for cows and between 40 and 46 inches for bulls. The maximum height was increased by 2 inches for both sexes and the minimum height for bulls was raised by 2 inches.

Does anyone know how these changes were communicated to the membership? I can not find any communication. The relevant herd book tells you who was on council at the time the changes were made but I do not have the bulletins from that time to see how the change was communicated to the membership.

[Minnie]

Hi Clive,

I've found this a very interesting part of the thread:

There is a detailed discussion on the American board on this subject where they discussed having two standards, one for chondro, and one for non-chondro. Also, they have discussed and provided evidence for the very significant differences in size and height due to the quality of grazing. Modern grazing can have many times the protein and energy of old leys and grasses. This can make a huge difference as it has done on my farm where most of my grazing is mainly high energy/protein.

If you want a small animal just (a) wean them early, (b) put them onto old leys and keep them there, and (c) put them in calf early. All the leys in the olden times would have been (by modern standards) low energy, so to restrain animals to the sizes that were applicable back then, you are in effect lowering the genetic size/height standard that the breed is aiming to achieve!

We're experiencing this now with our herd and pasture with less protein, Aussie Native Grasses mainly. We've struggled to get the weight back on our herd since moving properties and the calves born here are smaller and grow smaller, albeit healthy.

The difference with Fatima (good protein food by me) and Fairy Floss born the day before is most interesting, Fatima is a more solid bigger, heavier animal and Fairy Floss finer etc... Fairy Floss dam is Fatima's grand-dam so same line. There's definitely a similarity that I can see in them, and on weaning I've got Fairy Floss well covered and looking good (she did have a bad start with copper deficiency though, turned entirely red!).

Out west (I'm considered coastal and Sub Tropical) although they don't have our green lush looking grasses the cattle definitely look different and do better.

I've always thought there should be two standards one for chrondo and one non-carriers, as well as when they're shown... it's like apples and oranges to me.

Back to grasses, I'll have a look over on the American sites but if you have a link to some of the science would really appreciate it.

Vicki

[Broomcroft]

The breed standard is the basic reason I do not register dexters any more.

John has just given what he recalls as being the old standard and it apparently had a 4" range. But with chondro alone, the height difference from the same breeding cattle can be as much as 6" and 4" would be a norm I'd say. It can be less. So if you were breeding chondro right on the bottom limit, then the 50% of non-shorts you got might well just be within the standard if you were very lucky. If your shorts were even slightly taller, then 90% of your 50% non-shorts, i.e. possibly 40-45% of all the cattle you bred would not be within the standard for the breed!

Here's a pic of two calves of identical age from nearly identical half-sisters who's calves were always the same until one had a short and one a non-short (as shown). The difference became greater as they got older:



Unless my maths is up the swanny, even with the new standard, it is virtually impossible to fit chondro and non-chondro (of the same breeding and nutrition) within the same standard with any reasonable degree of certainty.

[Minnie]

Hi Clive,

...it is virtually impossible to fit chondro and non-chondro (of the same breeding and nutrition) within the same standard with any reasonable degree of certainty.

I've wondered this for a long time, and didn't know why there weren't two standards?

Vicki

[Broomcroft]

Hi Vicki, I've searched but can't find the link to the topic on the American board, but if I find it I'll post it or PM you.

[Minnie]

Thanks Clive, interesting stuff really.

Vicki

[JohnO]

A couple of corrections to my postings on this thread.

It was Moomin Nancy's firsts two calves, both to Moomin Izzatt, which were brown with black points rather that Moomin Nancy herself.

Moomin Macduff was 118cm (46.5 inches) rather than 48 inches. This link has a photo and stats

http://www.kapf-sg.ch/index.php?option= ... Itemid=123

[Broomcroft]

Let me ask another question. At what age is the animal measured? I ask this because it was either officially or unofficially the case that bulls (and presumably cows as well) were (when I bought my main stock bull) to meet the breed standard at 3 years of age. That is what I was told by the breeder. Only problem is, they are still growing at 3, especially on good nutrition, and some can grow quite considerably! I bought my bull at nearly 4 and he just went on growing.

Also, if you're measuring them early (which you are forced to do because of the high charges for overage registration), and also because you will want to use him, then what measurements do you use at that younger age?

And what happens if your estimate (or guess) of what height the bull will be at some future age, but when you get there he isn't correct and he's grown a lot more than you expected? And by then you have a few dozen, maybe a lot more, calves on the ground or on the way?

Presumably this conundrum is why when I came to buy one of the supposedly top Elite bulls he was a very big lad, way over any standard, and I had to return him?

[Mark Bowles]

Let me dip my toe in the water a little here.
Bulls that are Linear Classified or were in the Elite Bull Scheme will be measured at whatever age they are inspected. You can only go on what is presented before you, assumptions are fine but not always correct. A bull at 3 may have a lot more growing to do, also it may stop growing altogether.
A bull over 5 i suggest has done all his growing so measurement should be accurate. Nothing is over breed standard height on assumption. Linear classification gives a clear date of inspection on the linear printout, and also who inspected.

[wagra dexters]

We don't run our bulls on into old age now but we learned from those we kept on in the past that they can keep growing at the average rate of 1cm per year until they are 7yo and stay at that height from then on.

Of more than 20 cows measured for long enough to quote on, none reached maximum height by 36 months, only a couple reached maximum height at 48 months, most gain at least another centimeter or two after that, two gained another 3cms. These cows were by different AI bulls from three different matriarchs. Cows & bulls all non-carriers.

Margaret

[Broomcroft]

Personally, I'd have thought the majority of bulls are going to grow for some time after being measured (non-shorts). If no account is taken of future growth, which I think is what you are saying happens Mark, then it means that there will be bulls that are outside the breed standard by the time they are 4-6......but were within it when they were younger.

Which is what I was asking really and you've answered it. The breed standard isn't a "limit" on the height of an animal, it's a limit at a younger age, which is quite different.

My ex-stock bull almost touched 50" at 7-8 when I last had him measured, but he was within the standard when measured formerly at 3, and he apparently wasn't a borderline case, he was well within standard. The Elite bull I looked at back then at the same time, was apparently borderline when officially measured and then obviously went on to grow by the time I looked at him.

It's not my business, but it doesn't make any sense to me I have to say, but I can certainly see the difficulties.

[Kathleen]

Hello JohnO,

A friend pointed me in the direction of your post here - I must say it was a pleasure to read.

Re: "... the only one that Cornahir carries is wild red. This characteristic is widespread within the Dexter breed and not unique to animals with Cornahir or Shadwell blood." Absolutely true - it is also a fact that not only the Dexter breed is visibly 'red' when homozygous Wild.

Re: "It is interesting to note that reds still occur within the Kerry breed, which only allows black, and some of these reds have black noses and dark hairs." I have been told this also but unfortunately I have been unable to find a Kerry breeder who has bred such animals. Do you actually know of particular instances of such births? I ask simply because I would like to make contact with any breeders of Kerry cattle who have red in their herds.

Re: "I understand laboratory testing was done on this dun colour. Is it possible to get a list of the breeds which were tested and the extent of the testing done before the conclusion that the woodmagic dun was unique was drawn?" Yes testing was done but not extensive or wide ranging - I have a list of the breeds that were tested and the numbers. The main aim in testing other breeds was to eliminate the assumption that the Dun colouration was from Jersey cattle - which was always ludicrous because Pure Jersey cattle are homozygous wild and are in fact a charcoal colour and have many other genes which effect the coat colour to make their phenotype 'fawn'.

Re: "Was Redpoll tested? Redpoll is derived from two main breeds Suffolk Dun and Norfolk Red. The dun colour appears not to manifest itself within the breed however it would be unlikely to express as black is not an accepted colour within the breed." I found these comments very interesting - I am aware of testing which has shown Redpoll to be genetically homozygous wild.

I look forward to your response.

Regards
Kathleen

[JohnO]

Kathleen,
Here is a picture of a red kerry calf.

I am informed by the breeder that this cow had three red calves to two different bulls. While red kerries are no longer common they still occur. My information is that red calves were put in an appendix register and their calves were not registrable. That was until an EU ruling forced the society to allow full registration and therefore registration of the offspring. If this is correct red is now an acceptable colour within the kerry breed.
Incidentally all the red kerries that I have located so far have dark skin, a ruby red coat and the hair on the legs and face turns dark at about 1 year old. The guy who owned the calf in the photograph has seen wild red cornahir animals and says that colour wise they were the same.

Regarding the Cardiff project Mike Sinnott has contacted Cardiff University who told him there is no embargo on the publication of Tim Bray's thesis anyone who wants a copy should contact the University. I will now feel free to quote from the thesis on this discussion board and point out that I have no interest in misleading or distorting the facts as known.

I have been trying to convince Mike to post here as I think he has a lot to offer, I live in hope . Once again it was Mike that pointed out that red dark skinned calves were still being born to the Kerry population. He has also suggested an explanation as to why this is and why some of the odd occurences of red in apparently black Dexter lines turn up.
I will quote Mike here " I research Dexters for personal pleasure anyone that wishes any information I find is welcome to it " ...... " dexters are jolly good fun lets keep that way ".

[Kathleen]

Dear JohnO,

Thank you for your response and the photo.

Re: "If this is correct red is now an acceptable colour within the Kerry Breed"
It is a while since I contacted the Kerry Association and they would not respond when I did and asked about red in Kerry Cattle (by the way they reacted it seemed to me to be a skeleton in the cupboard) ... shall have to get in touch again and see what the go is.

Re: "Incidentally all the red kerries that I have located so far have dark skin, a ruby red coat and the hair on the legs and face turns dark at about 1 year old. The guy who owned the calf in the photograph has seen wild red cornahir animals and says that colour wise they were the same."
Cornahir Outlaw is/was homozygous wild and of the phenotype you describe.

Also your comments on the Cardiff report has made me realize I should have read the whole thread before I posted ... but I have read it now and I see I answered some questions that were already answered... my apologies for over supply.

I have read nearly all publications on Dexter cattle genetics that I could lay my hands on ... from Curran to Congress papers, Sheppy's findings and the Cardiff report. I have my own experience with breeding of Dexter cattle and private conversations with John Potter and geneticists to thank for some clarification on matters of coat colouration in Dexter's which I find fascinating!

Re: "Once again it was Mike that pointed out that red dark skinned calves were still being born to the Kerry population. He has also suggested an explanation as to why this is and why some of the odd occurences of red in apparently black Dexter lines turn up"
And? ... not sure what is meant by 'turn up'.

Re: "... Examples could have been scur polling and aborted horns. I have previously referred to modifications to the RedPoll(RP) breed standard. The 1939 standard mentions both aborted horns and scur polling. The RP society had problems producing clean polling until well into the fifties. This shows that normal dominance of polling as seen in Angus was not occuring."
I am not sure if I am understanding you correctly (and I note your comments re Miol cattle) - but the gene responsible for scurring is separate to that for polling - and is sex linked and not dominant like the poll gene. Just because an animal is scurred does not mean it is not polled ... in fact it can only develop scurs because it is polled.

Anyway ... thanks again for your reply.

Regards
Kathleen