The origin of dexter cattle - Where can I learn more about it?

[Louisa Gidney]

Anna, I've got as far as getting some photos onto Photobucket but am having problems downloading them to here. The album is Green Shiel bones & the user name is rentapeasant.
There are views of the famous Shorthorn bull Comet next to a non-short Dexter bull , humerus. Various views of short-leg Dexter cow bones next to Anglo-Saxon cow bones from Green Shiel, the Dexters are much stockier build for the length of bone. Also Chillingham bull next to Lindisfarne cows.
I would love to have a cow with bones like these archaeological cows. Unfortunately the Chillingham Park cattle are a closed herd and none are sold on.

[Anna]

Let´s see if I can upload some of them. I´m not sure if they show up, but at least there should be links.

The album is found here: http://s956.photobucket.com/albums....est%3D1

Picture 1


Picture 5

Dexter cows flanking Lindisfarne cow

Picture 7


Picture 10

Dexter cow and Lindisfarne cow

Picture 11

Chillingham bull and Lindisfarne cow

Picture 13

Lindisfarne cow & Chillingham bull

Picture 14

Comet and Nuty

Louisa: Do No 1 show short-leg Dexter cow bones next to Anglo-Saxon cow bones?



Edited By Anna on 1279037600

[Anna]

I would love to have a cow with bones like these archaeological cows.

In your imagination; how would a Dexter x Chillingham turn out?

Wouldn´t killing-out percent be badly affected

Thanks for the pictures!

[evolen]

Hi,
"Lindisfarne cows" is that a Breed?

[Louisa Gidney]

Thanks for posting the photos, I'm rubbish with this new-fangled technology!
The first photo is the Shorthorn bull Comet next to the Dexter non-short bull Nutty (proper name Aiskew Juglans Nigra). A while ago there was a saying that a Dexter looked like " a grand shorthorn seen through the wrong end of a telescope". I was hoping this would illustrate the saying.
Green Shiel is an Anglo-Saxon farm on Lindisfarne, where these archaeological cow skeletons were excavated.
I would love to cross a Dexter with a Chillingham to see what happened. I would expect immense hybrid vigour as the extant Chillinghams are now a homozygous population.
If the first crosses were then crossed, I would personally select for cattle a little shorter than the modern Chillingham, which is about 110cm, with more gracile build than the Dexter and with stonking udders. Although I don't milk, my personal inclination is towards dairy conformation rather than beef, so I'm not too fussed about carcase conformation.
The Lindisfarne cows were almost certainly primarily dairy cows, they are contemporary with the Celtic church monastery. The monks would eat lots of dairy produce but not beef, hence burial of the cows rather than using the carcases. I would imagine superb udders but no beef, like modern dairy breeds.
The early Kerry may have been more like these archaeological cows. The Dexter short-leg cow bones are similar in length, so the cows were roughly the same height, but the Dexters are much more stocky in build. This is not merely a manifestation of the dwarfism, hence the comparison of the non-short bull with the Shorthorn. Both types of Dexter have this stocky build in the bones.
I would love to get my hands on some archaeological Irish cattle bones to compare with my Dexter skeletons but I can't see that happening.

[evolen]

Thank you Louisa,
What do you think about the relation of the "Torfrind" (Sorry i didn't found the right expression in english) and Dexter? "Torfrind" Bones where found around the Lakes in mid Europe in the time of Lacustrines.

regards
Adrian

[Louisa Gidney]

I'm very insular and really do not know much about archaeological cattle bones outside Britain. There is good historical evidence for cattle trade between the Holland area and Britain but I would have thought that the alpine breeds, like the Herens, which are very Dexter-like, are unlikely to have any direct connection. Torfrind on Google turns up pictures of Tyrol grey cattle, which look very attractive. I'm not sure that there are any indigenous grey breeds in Britain. I would expect the hypothetical Dexter X Chillingham to be a Blue-Grey, like the Galloway X Whitebred Shorthorn.

[Anna]

I would love if you got your hands on some archaeological Irish cattle bones to compare with your Dexter skeletons. That would be very very interesting.

[evolen]

Louisa,
I was in conact with Dr. Jörg Schibler from the Institute for Prehistory and Archaeological Science in Basel. He told me the influences of the size of our mid europe breeds came from 2 directions, "small" from the nord and "big" from the romans in the south. The birthplace of all breed might be in the orient. Do you know how the cattle came to nordern europe and why they get smaller and smaller in that time?
Thank you for your patience!

Adrian

[Louisa Gidney]

Just found some info that might be of interest to Anna. Excavations on South Uist in the Hebrides seem to show that the early Norse settlers introduced a smaller type of cattle with a higher incidence of osteochondrosis (malformations in the articular surfaces of long bones), which is a heritable character. I'm looking at the incidence of osteochondrosis in the Dexter skeletons & they are riddled with it. The Norse also settled in Ireland, I'm thinking here in particular of the town of Cork in southern Ireland, built in the middle of the river by the incomers to be safe from the locals. The area round Cork has always been renowned for dairy cattle. This may all be coincidence but it is intriguing, particular as the Manx Loghtan sheep from the isle of Man have been shown to have genetic links to Scandinavian sheep.

[Anna]

This is very interesting information.

I found a Swedish study on osteochondrosis in bulls of three breeds. Just had a brief look at it but it seems like they found osteochondrosis in 80 % of the dairy bulls and in 100 % of the Charolais bulls. The breeds where Swedish Red, Swedish Lowland (same thing as Holstein these days, not a Swedish breed anymore) and Charolais. I will read some more about this to understand better what is said.

I am unsure of the exact meanng if the expression "riddled with". It means that the occurance is common in Dexters, right?

[Louisa Gidney]

Anna, sorry for the colloquial expression. Yes, osteochondrosis is common in my Dexter skeletons. It is also sex-related, being more common in males than females.
Adrian, cattle appear to have been domesticated in the Near East. Recent genetic studies have found that the wild aurochs of western Europe and Britain is not related to the earliest Neolithic domestic cattle in these areas. The latest paper I have read suggests that the decrease in cattle size is associated with an increase in milk yield. More small cows means extended season of dairy production if calving is staggered. Northern countries can make dairy products as they will keep for consumption in winter. Butter is replaced by olive oil in the mediterranean countries, so there is not the demand for dairy cattle compared to draught oxen.