Short and Medium legged

PeterO · Post by **PeterO** » Sun Nov 07, 2004 8:05 pm

If I am correct (and in the absence of DNA testing etc) I understand it is good practice to use a short legged bull with a medium legged cow (and vice versa) to avoid bull dog calves. This I have done and I have a beautiful red 6 month old Dexter heifer - but is it short legged or medium kegged or ? Can this be purely assessed by eye?

Peter O'Brien

Sylvia · Post by **Sylvia** » Mon Nov 08, 2004 9:38 am

I think the answer to this is yes. Assess by eye. But I have to say if you only have one calf and nothing to compare her with it isn't always that clear. If in doubt try to get a second opinion. Or maybe you could post her picture on this site and get lots of opinions, Mark will tell you if you can do this I'm sure.

Duncan MacIntyre · Post by **Duncan MacIntyre** » Mon Nov 08, 2004 4:27 pm

For the purpose of avoiding bulldogs there is no such thing as a medium legged Dexter. They are either long or short, ie either they carry the bulldog gene or they do not. If anyone has a so-called medium legged animal it is easy enough now to test for the bulldog gene, or you can be sure that both parents were non-carriers then the offspring is a npon-carrier. I would not recommend using a short bull on a "medium" cow unless you are sure the cow is a non-carrier.

Duncan, leaping in with both feet as usual.

PeterO · Post by **PeterO** » Tue Nov 09, 2004 9:51 am

Duncan

It sounds like it is DNA testing or nothing as I had assumed (obviously incorrectly) that a short bull with my long (medium) legged cows was OK.

Mark

Can we post pictures on the new bulletin board - as I would also love to show what my Dexter horns look like and find out from Bill Osborne and his like minded colleagues whether they are 'good' or 'bad' examples.

Peter O'Brien

Post by **Chris** » Tue Nov 09, 2004 10:38 pm

Peter: Pictures cannot currently be uploaded onto the website for viewing. Its a feature we are looking to add, but for the time being you may link to a picture already on the web using the 'Image' button when posting.

I have setup 'Polls' for the discussion board, allowing a question and multiple answers to be voted on by each member. Click 'New Poll' to have a go!

Regards
Chris

Duncan MacIntyre · Post by **Duncan MacIntyre** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 12:56 am

Hello Peter, you are right in assuming it is safe to use the long and short combination to avoid bulldogs. I am just a bit wary that as some long legs get shorter there are more about that are difficult to tell if they are long or short, and feel that the term medium only causes confusion. But as long as you are sure your "medium" is long, carry on.

Duncan

PeterO · Post by **PeterO** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 9:51 am

Thanks Duncan but that brings me back to my original question - is the offspring of a short/long mating short or long or is it down to genetic chance and I have to guess by eye which side of the coin came up?

Peter

Duncan MacIntyre · Post by **Duncan MacIntyre** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 5:55 pm

This would be easier with a piece of paper, but here goes.
Animals carry two genes for each characteristic, one from sire, one from dam.
A long legged dexter has two genes for leg length, both long. LL
A short legged dexter has one long and one short
LS
A bulldog has both genes short.
SS

So if we mate two longs, the possible combinations of genes, one from each parent, are all LL
If we mate two shorts, the combinations are LL, SL, LS, SS - ie one long leg, two short leg, and one bulldog.
If we mate a long and a short, we can get LL, SL, LS, LL - ie two long legs and two short - no possibility of bulldog.

This is not using conventional Geneticist shorthand so I hope people do not find it too confusing. Note that there is no combination which results in anything in between long and short such as medium which is why I find the term misleading. I happen to believe that if we concentrate on getting the length of leg down we can produce a long legged dexter, ie does not carry bulldog genes, which will be almost indistinguishable from a short leg. Beryl Rutherford is much of the way along this line, and if we ever come under pressure not to breed from short legged animals which carry genes for a lethal deformity it will be the way to preserve the breed. I have no evidence but I find it doubtful that a breed or strain would be sustainable in times past in Ireland if potentially 25% of calves were lost as bulldogs.

If anyone is in doubt as to the meaning of my explanation using the L and S please say so and I will try to put a clearer diagram on the board.
Or if anyone can do it better please do.
Duncan

groubearfarm · Post by **groubearfarm** » Sat Nov 13, 2004 7:14 pm

Duncan,
Do all short legged dexters carry the bulldog gene?
I wonder how many Dexter owners in past times in Ireland bred pure stock and how many would have just used their neighbours bull whatever its breeding.
Fiona

Duncan MacIntyre · Post by **Duncan MacIntyre** » Sat Nov 13, 2004 9:53 pm

Hello Fiona,

First question, yes all short legged Dexters carry the bulldog gene.

Second question, who knows what bulls were used, but prior to the mid 1800's we have to realise that there were really no such thing as breeds or breed societies or in fact any serious attempt to chronicle the pedigree of animals in the way that we understand today.
The Dexter breed was originally recorded in a register set up by the Farmer's Gazette and published in January 1887. It ran for about 3 years and then was published by the Royal Dublin Society as the Kerry and Dexter Herdbook volume I, in 1890.
The preface to the 1890 herdbook is quite interesting and I will try to post most of it under a separate heading. But the main thing is that prior to then there was no formal recording of pedigrees and animals were just bred as what they looked like or what was wanted for a particular purpose. All would be very local - Youatts books on livestock published mainly in the 1840's give an account of what breeds or types were seen in different parts by Youatt as he toured the country.
The cattle selected for the first herd book were often not of known parentage and in many cases no-one even knew who had bred them - if they looked like a kerry they were registered as a kerry, and if like a dexter, they were a dexter. I think that by that time any Dexter can be assumed to be a short legged animal, and many were exported from Ireland to adorn the policy parks of the aristocracy or nouveau riche of England.
My own opinion, and I stress that it is such and can probably never be proven or disproven, is that the stock of cattle which produced the Dexter were not carrying a bulldog gene prior to the mid to late 1800's, but that when the curiosity value was spotted they became valuable exportable animals and the breed as we know it took off. But underlying the formation of the breed there were very small hardy and productive cattle - which is what I want to get back to now by breeding "long legged Dexters" with very short legs, and small size. Currently I am using Shilton Pontius, a bull of Woodmagic breeding who is around 41 inches at the rump at 4 years old.
Enough rambling,

Duncan

groubearfarm · Post by **groubearfarm** » Mon Nov 22, 2004 4:02 pm

Duncan,

Thank you for your reply, yes the preface to the 1890 Herd Book would be interesting. I wonder how our decisions about the breed will be regarded in a hundred years from now.

fiona

Duncan MacIntyre · Post by **Duncan MacIntyre** » Mon Nov 22, 2004 5:22 pm

I have put up the preface to the 1890 herdbook a few days ago, unfortunately the cursor slipped a bit and altered the title and I did not realise till it had been posted with the words "in its native state" in front of what I had intended to be the title. sorry if you did not spot it, maybe our web person can change the title.

Duncan

castlemears · Post by **castlemears** » Mon Nov 22, 2004 8:32 pm

Peter O, Dolores has perfect horns, her photo has been forwarded to the bullettin as an example of what we should be aiming for in horned dexters.
best wishes to you and the cows, Sue Osborne.

congratulations to a fellow DCS member the Rev Patricia Pinkerton, who's recent paper on fmd has been acknowledged by the RASE as the most "significant addition made to its library and archive for a number of years".
well done Patricia.

Shazz · Post by **Shazz** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 9:39 am

Duncan....I think to state that all short-legged Dexters are carriers of the bulldog gene is a false statement...rather....are more likely to be carriers is the case. Eg. Woodmagic Hedgehog who is definately a short leg bull but is a verified non-carrier, and I think he is only 39 or 41 inches not sure.

Duncan MacIntyre · Post by **Duncan MacIntyre** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 12:32 pm

I suppose it all comes down to how we define long or short legs. I am sure Beryl Rutherford will be dancing with glee if we describe her recent generations as Short legged - I suppose I see it as defining how the animal has been bred, and of course it has important implications for how they will breed. Perhaps we need to find a new terminology, and call Woodmagic types "true breeding dexters" since they will breed true, whereas traditional short legged dexters do not strictly breed true - offspring will vary widely because they will be either "long" or "short" in the traditional useage of the terms.
At the end of the day if we can produce dexters which breed true, do not carry bulldog gene, and cannot be distinguished from carriers by eye then we need to rely very much on the gnetic test and may even end up with a breed substantially the same as we know it today but without the bulldog and all its bad and worsening press at home and abroad.
but at the moment the vast majority of animals which can be identified as short legged do carry the bulldog gene, but have been bred in good faith by members who I would not wish to alienate because of my reforming ideas. This is why I am somewhat reluctant to suggest "true breeding Dexters" as a description. I have also wondered about "standard bred dexters" but again I do not wish to cause offence to a great body of people.

Duncan