Short legged - Non Carrier

PeterO · Post by **PeterO** » Sun Jun 03, 2007 9:51 pm

Just back from the NZ Dexter AGM where I found myself being my normal contentious self.

I suggested to someone it was possible to have a short legged Dexter that is BDI-N? Was I wrong? If I was right can someone quote a bull that complies please.

Cheers

Peter

Duncan MacIntyre · Post by **Duncan MacIntyre** » Sun Jun 03, 2007 10:40 pm

Hello Peter,

whilst I believe it is impossible to have a traditional short legged dexter which is not a carrier, there are now more "long legged" dexters about which have very short legs. I know that sounds a bit Irish but we are talking dexters here. I have not got very good recent photos of my herd to show but have a look at http://uk.geocities.com/duncan.....es.html . I posted this page a couple of years ago and have forgotten how to update it. The bull is definitely a non carrier, the red cow is long legged and looks it, the black ones are now mature and are about 37" and certified non carriers.

Duncan.

Kirk- Cascade Herd US · Mon Jun 04, 2007 6:32 am

Think of all your school mates and how some had long legs and some had short legs. Probably none of the short-legged kids were true dwarfs (since dwarfing genes are very rare in humans).

In Dexters without the chondrodysplasia gene, there is a wide range of leg length, some short, some medium, some long. The problem is that many people use the term "short legged" as a synonym for Chondrodysplasia and the term "long legged" as a synonym for normal/non-chondro.

So at your meeting, those who thought the term "Short-legged" means "Has chondrodysplasia" were correct in saying that it was impossible to be short legged and not carry the gene. But those who think of short legs as simply a description of the relative length of legs say "of course it's possible to have relatively short legs and not have chondrodysplasia".

So due to the confusion of terms. I would never call a normal/non-chondro animal "short-legged". Instead, I would say that I had a "non-chondro/non-dwarf Dexter with rather short legs".

Kirk

forestblaze · Post by **forestblaze** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 3:07 pm

Woodmagic Hedgehog 3rd good beefy lad,used on our girls produces beautiful chunky calves all very similar even the mums have to think about which is theirs, and his legs are just long enough to reach the ground Sue

forestblaze · Post by **forestblaze** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 3:11 pm

PS Hedgehog is a short, non short, sue

louise · Post by **louise** » Tue Jun 05, 2007 12:26 am

Hi
I think it is time we stopped describing Dexters by using the misleading terms, short, medium, long legs. So much easier to say carrier or non carrier of the gene for Chondrodysplasia.
Cheers Louise

Duncan MacIntyre · Post by **Duncan MacIntyre** » Tue Jun 05, 2007 1:07 am

The descriptions are a very difficult barrier to cross. I have always felt that the "medium leg" means nothing at all, mostly used by non carrier breeders who have produced something on the way to a traditional size dexter which is a non carrier. Slowly it is becoming apparent that we can really produce non carrier dexters which are of the traditional size. A few of us are actively engaged in breeding programmes to do this, and it wll take a long time before the best of the non carriers equal the carrier animals for traditional appeal. But we are getting there.

Viewers might like to compare the pedigrees of Shilton Pontius and Woodmagic Hedgehog 3rd.

Duncan

Louisa Gidney · Post by **Louisa Gidney** » Wed Jun 06, 2007 9:40 pm

Yes, please. I for one would like to compare the pedigrees of Pontius & Hedgehog 3rd if you would kindly post them up.

Woodmagic · Post by **Woodmagic** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 2:50 pm

Nomenclature is a difficult subject when it comes to Dexters. Historically the term ‘medium legged’ was used and recognised for a type that when I first came into the breed was quite common. Unfortunately, since the genetics were not understood at that time, the bulldog carrier was encouraged since it appeared to carry more beef, and the true breeding small short leg cow virtually disappeared.
I was probably the first to deliberately try to breed it back again, and therefore many of the true breeding short legged animals about today may carry some Woodmagic, but I have simply rescued what was within the breed, and hopefully will prevail in time.
The carrier is incorrectly referred to as ‘short legged’, the whole skeleton is reduced, and a larger carcase is hung onto the smaller frame, giving the impression of a short leg, no breeding will ever mimic that without the achondrodysplasia being present. Raby Skipper H.B.1464 was the first ‘medium legged ‘ bull I saw and all my cattle are his descendents, unusually for those times he never sired a bulldog calf, which is why his owner Peggy Forwood used him.
As the true breeder disappeared, the term was hijacked for the bigger ‘short leg’, and as a result I agree it is now meaningless.
It is unlikely that the original Celtic cow could have existed carrying the liability of the bulldog, probably in an effort to ‘improve’ them, the achondroplasia
came into the breed along with the cross that was used to effect the improvement, and by the time the first bulldog calves arrived the source was obscured. Along with the dwarfism this would account for the very large variation in size that occurs in the ‘short leg ‘ Dexter.

forestblaze · Post by **forestblaze** » Sat Jun 09, 2007 12:51 pm

Louisa,sorry but Idont know how to post Hedgehogs pedigree on the site ,his full pedigree is in Beryls book My Love Affair With Dexters ,perhaps Duncan is more computor literate than I am, also he may be able to tell us if Beryls book is still available Best Wishes Sue

jeanthomas · Post by **jeanthomas** » Sat Jun 09, 2007 2:13 pm

Now Dexter Cattle Society have on line pedigrees, it is easy to view Hedgehog and Pontius's pedigrees on the DCS site. Certainly some common denominators there! :;):

Duncan MacIntyre · Post by **Duncan MacIntyre** » Sat Jun 09, 2007 2:23 pm

I have been trying to get pedigrees posted but it is very difficult to see how to get the information to come out in an orderly fashion. I could possibly scan in pedigrees of both bulls and post them as pictures but I suspect the writing would be much too small to read. My point in wanting to compare the two bulls pedigrees was that the two which have been mentioned as smaller stature without the bulldog factor are both Woodmagic and both quite closesly related. Hedgehog 3rd is sired by Woodmagic Musk Ox, whose pictures are in Beryl's book all be it with a face mask of mud on. Shilton Pontius's sire is a son of Musk Ox, and the remaining lines also have some individuals in common. Any DCS members should be able to go onto the on line herdbook and look and even print them out. Log on with your membership number and password issued by DCS, enter the animals name in the animal search page, click search, and the individuals name should appear with a list of options above. Click on pedigree and a four generation pedigree should come up. If you want to look further back, click on any name on the pedigree and that animals details will appear.

Duncan